Re: [nafex] Pakistan mulberry

Just FYI, I heard from folks who attended Wolfskill's mulberry tasting this
year that they're getting more GRIN requests than they can handle from
hobbyists so they won't be sending out to individuals any longer. If you
live near a local group like a CRFG chapter or a local horticulture group
of some kind, you can do a group order of material.

Megan Lynch
Zone 10b, South Pasadena, CA
http://www.meganlynch.net
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[nafex] Pakistan mulberry

I have been thinking about trialing Pakistan mulberry here in Vermont. I understand that it is a real long shot, but given the fact that much of the limitation seems to revolve around 'low chill' requirment, it might just work. Hardiness-wise, I understand Atlanta area saw sub-zero temps. for a couple of nights this past winter. Did those of you in the south who are growing Pakistan experience severe dieback this winter? I'm thinking that our winter weather is consistent enough that the trees would stay dormant, and then I could 1. grow them on the own roots so they can resprout if need be and 2. plant in a protected spot with some extra protection as people do with figs. They sure are delicious, so I think its worth a shot.

I also noticed perusing the GRIN database that several other similar selections are available, listed as Morus macroura or 'himalayan mulberry.' One in particular DMOR 9  looks similar to 'pakistan', though a bit scrawnier, and the description seems to suggest zone 5 hardiness, though on second look I noticed this is merely a snippet from a seed savers exchange write-up about the species. Anyone know anything about hardy higher-chill macroura selections that might be a good stand in for
'pakistan'?
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[nafex] 'Kim' mulberry

Anyone know the skinny on the mulberry variety called 'Kim'? There's a picture of it on Cliff England's webpage taken by Robert Hamilton or NAFEX. It seems remarkable in size, yet I can't find any info about it anywhere. I'm not sure if the list will allow pictures posted to email, but here goes. If not, go to http://www.nuttrees.net/ and click on 'fruit trees', then 'mulberry'. Also notable is 'korean', which I assume is the same as Kokuso 20.


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Re: [nafex] mulching trees

Thanks for the suggestion. We have plenty of pine needles here and they
do break down, mostly mechanically, not biologically. They result in a
deep layer of organic matter under the trees but that layer is very dry
and not biologically very active.

The pine needles break down because they're small. Wood chips are too
big and don't do anything. Except immediately after a rain (which
happens only a handful of times a year) they are bone dry. Your
suggestion of wetting them down is nice but would last about a day.

I also personally find wood chips a real pain to work around. They make
weeding difficult (and yes the grasses and other weeds grow up right
through them) and are uncomfortable to kneel on when working around the
tree.

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
(505)-281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days

On 5/26/2015 11:06 PM, fuwa fuwa usagi wrote:
> My suggestion, run a intermediate term test. Mark off a 10x10 area, wet it down and then add a minimum of 2ft of wood chips and let it sit for a year...then dig a test whole in it and see what has happened. If it has decayed a bit and you have worms and insect activity, as I suspect, add enough mulch to bring it back up to st least 2 ft, and check it again a year later.
>
> The key is, the sheer mass of the wood chips will likely create a micro environment that promotes decay. Even in the arid areas of the Gila wilderness there is substantial decay underneath 2 ft of pine needles.
>
> This will give you an idea what is truly possible in your area, rather then speculation.
>
> 2-3 years to run a test is nothing in the greater scheme of things.
>
> tfb
>
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Re: [nafex] mulching trees

My suggestion, run a intermediate term test. Mark off a 10x10 area, wet it down and then add a minimum of 2ft of wood chips and let it sit for a year...then dig a test whole in it and see what has happened. If it has decayed a bit and you have worms and insect activity, as I suspect, add enough mulch to bring it back up to st least 2 ft, and check it again a year later.

The key is, the sheer mass of the wood chips will likely create a micro environment that promotes decay. Even in the arid areas of the Gila wilderness there is substantial decay underneath 2 ft of pine needles.

This will give you an idea what is truly possible in your area, rather then speculation.

2-3 years to run a test is nothing in the greater scheme of things.

tfb

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Re: [nafex] mulching trees

I'd say, then, just keep mowing. You gotta respect the grass for being able to grow so well with so little moisture. Or are you irrigating?

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
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> On May 26, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> wrote:
>
> It sounds like the theory is that mulch will
>
> 1) keep roots of other plants away from the "feeding" area of the tree, and
>
> 2) break down to supply nutrients to the tree
>
> as well as holding in moisture.
>
> Our invasive grass can send its roots 2-3 feet into an area even if the tops of the grass cannot poke up there. So I can have a mulched area with no grass showing but the area is still completely filled with the grass's feeding roots.
>
> So what can I do to keep the area around the tree free from these grass roots? Maybe if I put down weed barrier in a six foot diameter circle around the tree, I might end up with a foot or two circle around the tree without grass roots. But that amounts to basically "paving over" my entire field. And then I have no surface layer of mulch to add nutrients and organic matter at all. Help!
>
> In our dry climate wood chips would never break down. They would still be intact wood chips 10 or 15 years later.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jay
>
> Jay Cutts
> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013)
> (505) 281-0684
> 10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days
>
> On 5/25/2015 12:42 PM, Lee Reich wrote:
>> Yhere's little empirical support for the use of ramial wood chips, as opposed to any old wood chips. All the theories about white rots, brown rots, softwood mulch, etc. sound very solid but haven't been shown — as far as I know — to hold water in practice. I've seen the Canadian paper that everyone refers to in support of ramial wood chips; basically, if you read it carefully, it promotes use of ramial wood chips without any supporting data.
>>
>> Michael Phillips reference to ramial wood chips rightly points out the higher nutrient composition of this younger wood. But nutrients can be added, if needed, which is not usually the case after wood chip mulch of any kind has been used and replenished over the years. He's wrong about any wood chip mulch robbing nitrogen from plants during decomposition. As a mulch, decomposition is slow and at the interface of soil and mulch. A steady state is achieved with nitrogen being re-released into the soil at about the same rate as it's being tied up. This is not only theory: I and many others have noticed this in practice. It is when wood material is mixed into the soil that plants get temporarily starved for nitrogen.
>>
>> Practically any material is valuable as mulch. I would not turn away a source of wood chips made from older wood. The important point is to keep the ground covered with whatever you can get your hands on.
>>
>> Lee Reich, PhD
>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>
>>
>> Books by Lee Reich:
>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>> The Pruning Book
>> Weedless Gardening
>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>> Landscaping with Fruit
>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>
>>> On May 25, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)— at least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do.
>>>
>>> Here, (what is in the feed stores) —herbicide free mature grass hay and straw hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good. I think shredded (not chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) works even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay and ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use.
>>>
>>> If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take either.
>>>
>>> I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent plants. I'm pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates. Ramial lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is weed and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always more complicated. See
>>>
>>> http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm <http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood>
>>>
>>> For specifics on orchards see http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php <http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php>
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>>
>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> http://yearroundgardening.me
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist.
>>>>
>>>> Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers.
>>>>
>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog> <http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>
>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>
>>>>
>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>>
>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even "thrive." I have seen them on rock cliffs.
>>>>> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree "The Tree of Teneré". Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/> <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob Randall. Ph.d.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com <mailto:leeareich@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it's not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog> <http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog><http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>>
>>>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob Randall
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://yearroundgardening.me
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
>>>>>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>>>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>>>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jay
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jay Cutts
>>>>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>>>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684
>>>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________________
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>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist>>
>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist>>
>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared>>
>>>>> __________________
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>>>> __________________
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>>> __________________
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Re: [nafex] mulching trees

It sounds like the theory is that mulch will

1) keep roots of other plants away from the "feeding" area of the tree, and

2) break down to supply nutrients to the tree

as well as holding in moisture.

Our invasive grass can send its roots 2-3 feet into an area even if the
tops of the grass cannot poke up there. So I can have a mulched area
with no grass showing but the area is still completely filled with the
grass's feeding roots.

So what can I do to keep the area around the tree free from these grass
roots? Maybe if I put down weed barrier in a six foot diameter circle
around the tree, I might end up with a foot or two circle around the
tree without grass roots. But that amounts to basically "paving over"
my entire field. And then I have no surface layer of mulch to add
nutrients and organic matter at all. Help!

In our dry climate wood chips would never break down. They would still
be intact wood chips 10 or 15 years later.

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013)
(505) 281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days

On 5/25/2015 12:42 PM, Lee Reich wrote:
> Yhere's little empirical support for the use of ramial wood chips, as opposed to any old wood chips. All the theories about white rots, brown rots, softwood mulch, etc. sound very solid but haven't been shown — as far as I know — to hold water in practice. I've seen the Canadian paper that everyone refers to in support of ramial wood chips; basically, if you read it carefully, it promotes use of ramial wood chips without any supporting data.
>
> Michael Phillips reference to ramial wood chips rightly points out the higher nutrient composition of this younger wood. But nutrients can be added, if needed, which is not usually the case after wood chip mulch of any kind has been used and replenished over the years. He's wrong about any wood chip mulch robbing nitrogen from plants during decomposition. As a mulch, decomposition is slow and at the interface of soil and mulch. A steady state is achieved with nitrogen being re-released into the soil at about the same rate as it's being tied up. This is not only theory: I and many others have noticed this in practice. It is when wood material is mixed into the soil that plants get temporarily starved for nitrogen.
>
> Practically any material is valuable as mulch. I would not turn away a source of wood chips made from older wood. The important point is to keep the ground covered with whatever you can get your hands on.
>
> Lee Reich, PhD
> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>
>
> Books by Lee Reich:
> A Northeast Gardener's Year
> The Pruning Book
> Weedless Gardening
> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
> Landscaping with Fruit
> Grow Fruit Naturally
>
>> On May 25, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)— at least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do.
>>
>> Here, (what is in the feed stores) —herbicide free mature grass hay and straw hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good. I think shredded (not chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) works even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay and ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use.
>>
>> If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take either.
>>
>> I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent plants. I'm pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates. Ramial lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is weed and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always more complicated. See
>>
>> http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm <http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood>
>>
>> For specifics on orchards see http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php <http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>
>> Bob Randall, Ph.D.
>>
>> http://yearroundgardening.me
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist.
>>>
>>> Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers.
>>>
>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog> <http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>
>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>
>>>
>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>> The Pruning Book
>>> Weedless Gardening
>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even "thrive." I have seen them on rock cliffs.
>>>> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree "The Tree of Teneré". Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or
>>>>
>>>> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/> <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/>>
>>>>
>>>> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>>>
>>>> Bob Randall. Ph.d.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com <mailto:leeareich@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it's not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials.
>>>>>
>>>>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog> <http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog><http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>>
>>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob Randall
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://yearroundgardening.me
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
>>>>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jay
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jay Cutts
>>>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>>>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>>>>>>>> (505)-281-0684
>>>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________
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>>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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>>>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>>> nafex mailing list
>>>>>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
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>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>> nafex mailing list
>>>>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org> <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>>
>>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
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>>>>>> message archives
>>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex>>
>>>>>> Google message archive search:
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>>>>>> nafex list mirror sites:
>>>>>> http://ifneb.blogspot.com <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/> <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/ <http://ifneb.blogspot.com/>> IFNEB Blog
>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist> <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist <http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist>>
>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist>>
>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist>>
>>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared>>
>>>>> __________________
>>>>> nafex mailing list
>>>>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org> <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>>
>>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
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>>>>> message archives
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex> <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/nafex>>
>>>>> Google message archive search:
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>>>>> nafex list mirror sites:
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>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist> <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist <http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist>>
>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist> <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist <https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist>>
>>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared> <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared <http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared>>
>>>> __________________
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>>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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>>>> message archives
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>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/permaculturelist
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/nafexlist
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/nafexmailinglist
>>>> Avant Geared http://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
>>> __________________
>>> nafex mailing list
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>>> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info:
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Re: [nafex] mulching trees

Most of my trees are young and don't yet have deep, wide root systems.
This is why I'm concerned that what is happening at the surface is
affecting them. I have the sense that the grasses are "choking out" the
tree. Is that really what happens? The grasses are certainly soaking up
any nutrients in the top 6 inches or so of the soil, so if I've put any
fertilizer or manure there, I'm concerned that it will never get to the
tree roots. Do I have the right picture?

I'm afraid that with this Western Wheat Grass, the more I mow it, the
denser the root system will become.

What would happen if I planted a deep rooted plant like alfalfa around
the tree? I think alfalfa might outcompete the grass. Would it allow
the nutrients accumulating at the surface to reach the tree roots?

I guess that's the bottom line question: How can I let the nutrients
that I'm applying on the surface, or that are building up through the
mulch on the surface, to feed the tree and not just feed a lush crop of
grass while starving the tree?

I appreciate the help that you all are providing.

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013)
(505) 281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days

On 5/24/2015 2:45 PM, Lee Reich wrote:
> I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say, wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this do not exist.
>
> Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my site by arborists and landscapers.
>
> Lee Reich, PhD
> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>
>
> Books by Lee Reich:
> A Northeast Gardener's Year
> The Pruning Book
> Weedless Gardening
> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
> Landscaping with Fruit
> Grow Fruit Naturally
>
>> On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and even "thrive." I have seen them on rock cliffs.
>> I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree "The Tree of Teneré". Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for yourself. Do an image search or
>>
>> http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/ <http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/>
>>
>> But they will do best with rotted lignin materials.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>
>> Bob Randall. Ph.d.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass, as long as it's not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being mulched with low lignin materials.
>>>
>>> I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty, mature red oak thriving in mown lawn.
>>>
>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog> <http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>
>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>
>>>
>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>> The Pruning Book
>>> Weedless Gardening
>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass. See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/ <http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>>
>>>>
>>>> All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals.
>>>>
>>>> What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a solution.
>>>>
>>>> I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it. Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Randall
>>>>
>>>> "Share What You Grow and What You Know!"
>>>>
>>>> Bob Randall, Ph.D.
>>>>
>>>> http://yearroundgardening.me
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short. The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lee Reich, PhD
>>>>> Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
>>>>> http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Books by Lee Reich:
>>>>> A Northeast Gardener's Year
>>>>> The Pruning Book
>>>>> Weedless Gardening
>>>>> Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
>>>>> Landscaping with Fruit
>>>>> Grow Fruit Naturally
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM. I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass - that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet. It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the weed barrier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the mulch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still spread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched, the grass will come in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the tree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jay
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jay Cutts
>>>>>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>>>>>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>>>>>> (505)-281-0684
>>>>>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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