Re: [nafex] Fruit trees -- high water table

Exciting project Steve!

I have a question and 2 comments that I will pass on.

The question relates to your comment about Cornelian Cherry. I also have
an acidic soil (6.0) but did not adjust the pH when I planted my trees
due to the published pH tolerance of these plants as low as 5.0. What
am I missing? Do they thrive in alkaline soils and just tolerate acidic
soils?

The comment relates to adding CaCo3 to land for long term pH management.
Historically, this was done deliberately with oyster shells applied to
agricultural fields in colonial America (one can still view shell
fragments in those fields still in use) and inadvertently from discarded
shells along the southeastern US coast in the form of calcareous middens.

I was warned that once the material is applied, it is hard to pull it
back if you applied too much. How do calculate to how much to apply? Is
the application dependent upon total rainfall? Does rain pH matter? Does
rate of rainfall matter? Just thoughts.

The last comment is that my understanding is that chestnuts do best in
acidic soils. I believe that I have killed a couple of trees by placing
them in a lime rich area.

Betsy Hilborn

On 1/7/2017 12:08 AM, Steven Covacci wrote:
> Thank you for the response, Mr. Lehman. I just discovered that the
> seasonally high water table is said to be "24 to 36" under the soil
> surface, as opposed to 18" to 30", which is quite a bit more promising.
> The soil is described as stony, course, sandy, deep and well-drained, and
> moderately retentive of moisture. This is good. It's described as 'poor
> agriculture' soil-- I"m pretty sure this is for the fact that it's so
> stony; but since I'm intending to grow perennial fruit trees, this doesn't
> bother me. What concerns me a bit is that the upper inches are described
> as acidic and the lower inches of the top soil as well as the subsoil is
> described as having a reaction which is 'very acidic'. I hope that I won't
> have to forgo thoughts of planting things like apricot (on Manchurian
> rootstock) and Cornelian-cherry. I don't know if getting truckloads of
> crushed (gravel size) limestone would help; that I could back the gravel
> and even larger pieces into the ground around the roots of these
> calcium-dependent crops. And I'd definitely compost trees around them to
> neutralize pH; I've read the same. Very interesting tidbit re: pH and paw
> paw/Ukraine.
>
> It will be about 45 acres, but I figure dedicating 3 acres of the 45 to
> calcium-dependent crops might be manageable.
>
> Thank you very much,
> Steve
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Jerry Lehman <jwlehmantree@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/6/2017 1:51 PM, sc wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Ive been working at searching for a property. One I will check out
>>> next features a soil type which is categorized under the "Rockaway Series".
>>> Rocky, sandy, deep, supposedly well-dained soul, but there is a 14" clay
>>> fragipan a couple of feet down.
>>> A seasonally high water table is of special concern; water table during
>>> is just 18" - 30" under the soil surface during these times.
>>> Also, the soil is very acidic (pH of 5).
>>> My focus is on growing native persimmon, paw paw, native plums (P.
>>> americana, P. munsiniana, P. angustifolia) and apples.
>>> However, I would also like to grow Cornelian-cherry, sour cherry and
>>> apricot.
>>> In dealing with the issue of a high water table, the thought I had was to
>>> clear 9 acres of upland woods (necessary for the creating space for the
>>> projected orchard) and then dump all of the non valuable lumber and rock on
>>> 3 acres of the cleared orchard surface then overtop with a few inches of
>>> top soil/sand.
>>> On this 3 acres, i could plant apricot, stone fruits, etc.
>>> I think persimmon, hickory, chestnut, paw paw would do ok with a
>>> seasonally high water table just 2' below the surface?
>>> It might not be the right site. Then there's the issue of pH. I'd
>>> Would something like this work?
>>>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> That 14 inches of clay hardpan a couple of feet down doesn't scare me and
>> I like the sound of that much better than the previous one you asked about.
>> The pH of 5 I don't believe is that detrimental and can be partially
>> overcome with agriculture lime, I would think. Also if you have a few trees
>> compost around them tends to neutralize pH, if it's acidic it raises the pH
>> and if it's high it lowers pH. Or at least so I've read and been told. But
>> when I was in Ukraine I saw them successfully growing pawpaws in the soil
>> with pH 9 by having about 6 inches of mulch about 4 foot around each tree.
>>
>> If these 3 acres are near you and the price is right I believe you should
>> give a strong consideration.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
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