Re: [nafex] nafex Digest, Vol 242, Issue 9

Ginda,
For last 13 yrs, been digging up and removing autumn olive, ailanthus,
multiflora rose, privet, etc on our farm.

Rocky parts of our farm, the roots of these healthy plants run over and
around rock, large and small, to get to pockets of deeper soil.
So seems to me you're doing what young seedling trees would be doing from
the start: sending out feeler roots to find those areas where there's room
to grow...

While on sabbatical in Korea, when wandering around Yonsei campus in Seoul,
I often saw campus landscape crew transplanting large, native forsythia and
weigela. When shaping these round rootballs into the abundant rock
crevices on campus hillsides; they sure had a different idea of a
"proper planting hole" than I did. Once the weather warmed and we saw these
plants growing wild as we hiked, we realized the landscapers were merely
placing the plants as they grew in the wild. Korean culture is 5000 yrs
old. Even at my 60 yrs, I'm content to leave more rocks in place and learn
to work around them!

Grace and peace,
Richard
Eating apple crisp for breakfast: Liberty, Enterprise and seedling apples
from our farm.

Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:19:00 -0500
> From: Ginda Fisher <list@ginda.us>
> To: NAFEX Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [nafex] Leaves in hole before fruit tree
> Message-ID: <3E439655-C2D2-4AB0-837A-3A70BC48912E@ginda.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I?m curious what others think of what I?ve been doing recently. I have
> reasonably nice soil, but it?s full of rock of all different sizes, some
> large. So digging holes is very hard work. And I understand that it?s
> important not to bend the roots of a young plant back on itself. So I?ve
> been digging a small hole for the ?core" of the plant, and spreading out
> the roots on the top of the soil, and then digging a small trench for each
> root, often with a trowel. For instance, I planted some apple rootstock
> that was basically a stick with half a dozen long thread-like roots. So I
> dug a star, and spread out each root thread in a different direction.
>
> It?s a lot less digging. If I hit a large rock, I can guide the root
> around it. I?ve planted tree peonies, apples, and hazelnuts this way.
>
> Nothing that I?ve planted that way has seemed to die of it, yet. (Plants
> that died mostly did so because a deer ate the whole plant. A tree peonies
> developed some fungal disease.) But I feel a little guilty when I do this.
>
> Wishing you all a safe Thanksgiving,
> Ginda Fisher
> eastern MA, zone 6
>
> > On Nov 23, 2020, at 7:32 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > I echo Lee's advice. I never amend holes now, I plant in soil as it lays
> and top dress.
> >
> > My first experience growing fruit trees I amended all (very big) holes.
> They lasted about 12 years, got quite large, but when they started dying, a
> post mortem revealed roots did not penetrate beyond the original hole
> diameter.
> >
> > On 11/23/2020 6:13 AM, Lee Reich wrote:
> >> And any material that dramatically changes the soil porosity creates a
> ?pot in the ground? effect wherein roots stay inn the amended soil
> >
>
>
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Re: [nafex] nafex Digest, Vol 242, Issue 9

On digging trenches for individual roots for bare root transplant:

I have a nursery that produces bearing age, 2.5" diam. well branched 12'
tall fruit trees that I grow and transplant with over half of my inventory
being bare root. The diameter of the root systems can sometimes be as much
as 8'- with peaches that means a very rigid 8'. Some roots may extend 6'
from the trunk.

Digging trenches for such roots is standard procedure for us and has been
for years. Often we simply lift the sod with a little soil and pull the
roots underneath creating a nice shallow root system that over the years
has served trees very well. Sometimes peach trees act as though they
weren't even transplanted and can hold good crops the first season after
transplant. Same with J. plums, but other species will tend to need a
season to recover.

After planting shallow we dress trees with a 6 cu' ft wheelbarrow of
compost covered with same of shredded wood mulch. Forest soil tends to be
a parfait and not homogenous like prairie soil and I find trees tend to
thrive in an approximation of that.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 8:21 AM <nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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> 1. This list still works, as before. (Rosholdt)
> 2. Re: Leaves in hole before fruit tree (Ginda Fisher)
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> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:33:31 -0500
> From: Rosholdt <rosholdt@erols.com>
> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [nafex] This list still works, as before.
> Message-ID: <8e0cbe87-1f3a-3107-2b87-415bf766e77d@erols.com>
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> Subject:
> Re: [nafex] This nafex list
> From:
> Megan Lynch <spidra@gmail.com>
> Date:
> 11/21/2020, 12:51 AM
>
> To:
> mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
> <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> The only reason I haven't posted is because people said they were folding
> up the list. I think the list where it is is way better than FB could ever
> be.
>
> Megan
>
> On 11/21/2020 12:52 AM, nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> > This list still works, as before.
>
>
>
> I AGREE!? With all the FB censorship, this is great!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:19:00 -0500
> From: Ginda Fisher <list@ginda.us>
> To: NAFEX Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [nafex] Leaves in hole before fruit tree
> Message-ID: <3E439655-C2D2-4AB0-837A-3A70BC48912E@ginda.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I?m curious what others think of what I?ve been doing recently. I have
> reasonably nice soil, but it?s full of rock of all different sizes, some
> large. So digging holes is very hard work. And I understand that it?s
> important not to bend the roots of a young plant back on itself. So I?ve
> been digging a small hole for the ?core" of the plant, and spreading out
> the roots on the top of the soil, and then digging a small trench for each
> root, often with a trowel. For instance, I planted some apple rootstock
> that was basically a stick with half a dozen long thread-like roots. So I
> dug a star, and spread out each root thread in a different direction.
>
> It?s a lot less digging. If I hit a large rock, I can guide the root
> around it. I?ve planted tree peonies, apples, and hazelnuts this way.
>
> Nothing that I?ve planted that way has seemed to die of it, yet. (Plants
> that died mostly did so because a deer ate the whole plant. A tree peonies
> developed some fungal disease.) But I feel a little guilty when I do this.
>
> Wishing you all a safe Thanksgiving,
> Ginda Fisher
> eastern MA, zone 6
>
> > On Nov 23, 2020, at 7:32 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > I echo Lee's advice. I never amend holes now, I plant in soil as it lays
> and top dress.
> >
> > My first experience growing fruit trees I amended all (very big) holes.
> They lasted about 12 years, got quite large, but when they started dying, a
> post mortem revealed roots did not penetrate beyond the original hole
> diameter.
> >
> > On 11/23/2020 6:13 AM, Lee Reich wrote:
> >> And any material that dramatically changes the soil porosity creates a
> ?pot in the ground? effect wherein roots stay inn the amended soil
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
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> ------------------------------
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> End of nafex Digest, Vol 242, Issue 9
> *************************************
>
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Re: [nafex] The heartbreak of grafted pawpaws

The late John H. Gordon, Jr. opined, back in the 1990s, that if he were 30
years younger and starting over, that he would, rather than outplant
grafted pawpaws, select the largest-leaved seedlings of named selections
and plant those out. Pawpaw fruits from named-parentage seedlings are
quite similar in most respects to those of the parent variety. Coming from
an orchard with multiple superior varieties to serve as potential parents,
resulting seedlings would certainly have a genetic 'head-start' with regard
to fruit quality &/or productivity.

I've experienced death &/or decline/regression of pawpaw grafts over a few
years after transplant - and even when grafted into well-established
seedlings.
I've largely lost most of my desire to consume much pawpaw fruit, but do
have a half-dozen or so named-parentage seedlings planted in a low spot
alongside my driveway, with a few named varieties grafted in here and there
- at this point, I can't even identify the grafts or the varieties, though
I know Mango and Overleese are in there somewhere.
Still, periodically, sections of a tree will die out - and if that was a
graft... it's gone.

Many of the pawpaws I've outplanted here were either 'imprisoned' for a
couple of years in 20 oz (or even smaller!) styrofoam cups or in
mass-plantings in 3-gallon pots. I have just whacked off the masses of
circling roots in the bottom and transplanted, just as they're breaking
dormancy; again, there is nothing magical about a taproot, on any species.
No artificial shade provided, and even those in full sun, not under a
canopy of larger trees, have done well.

Lucky Pittman

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 10:34 PM Fred Bruns <r.fred.bruns@gmail.com> wrote:

> One solution might be to plant seeds from a known variety and hope that at
> least some of the seedlings are similar to the parent. I have seeds from
> Shenandoah with the male parent probably being Pennsylvania Golden.
>
> I had a grafted tree fail to sprout one spring. It was fairly large, about
> 10 feet wide and 15 feet tall. It didn't produce suckers after the top
> died, so I presume the roots died during the fall or winter.
>
> For what it's worth, you can find wild pawpaws near just about every stream
> here in central Indiana. The underlying rock is limestone, so I doubt
> they require acidic soil.
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 3:40 PM Mike Levine <mlevine@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > Sounds like your are mostly doing the right things.
> > Only 1-2 year old seedlings need shade. If they are grafted they ready
> for
> > full sun, but want regular irrigation. I find the best time to
> transplant
> > is after they have leafed out, but before the leaves are full size.
> > What is your soil texture? If it's very well drained maybe water more
> > often or more deeply? They don't like to dry out too much
> > Have you checked your pH? Some folks say it needs acidic soil, but I
> > haven't had an issue with our alkaline soils.
> > I hope we can help figure out why they are dying.
> >
> > Best,
> > Mike Levine
> > www.natureandnurtureseeds.com
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 2:42 PM DB <pogohome@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Two possibilities. Boulders or high water. I have both. I have two
> > > spots where water will raise to the top and stay for weeks or months.
> I
> > > now plant raised mounds.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 1:33 PM Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I planted my first pawpaws in 2009, I ordered the superior Peterson
> > > > pawpaw varieties directly from Neil himself. One of four survived - a
> > > > Shenandoah that was vigorous until 2015, then visibly declined. I
> > > > removed the dead tree this summer. My working hypothesis was that the
> > > > tree suffered a pruning injury back in 2013 or 2014 that became
> > infected
> > > > with fungus. That Shenandoah was an outlier, but it is the only
> grafted
> > > > tree that has ever successfully matured fruit for me. It showed me
> how
> > > > delicious selected pawpaws can be.
> > > >
> > > > Every other grafted pawpaw I have planted (about 16 of them) has died
> > > > but for two five-year-old (at site) trees that are still less than 16
> > > > inches high.
> > > >
> > > > The typical scenario is that the plant will sit for a few years in my
> > > > artificially shaded site as it becomes established. Then in its third
> > or
> > > > fourth year at site it starts rapid growth. Within a year to three
> > years
> > > > of putting on height, it flowers, maybe begins to set fruit (they do
> > not
> > > > always get this old) then midsummer, the leaves suddenly wilt and the
> > > > tree dies within a few months. Post mortems reveal seemingly healthy
> > > > roots, no trunk lesions, no discoloration of cambium. No clue.
> > > >
> > > > The kicker is that I have healthy seedlings all over the place. Some
> > > > seedlings are seven years old, volunteers in the woods where I tossed
> > > > overripe fruit. Some were planted intentionally. The rootstock
> sprouts
> > > > well if I leave it and seems healthy. Rootstock has started producing
> > > > fruit (not very good fruit). I have divided rootstock from dead
> grafted
> > > > trees to start new patches with the hope of later grafting. I have
> not
> > > > seen remaining rootstock, divided rootstock or seedlings die like the
> > > > grafted varieties.
> > > >
> > > > How I care for them:
> > > >
> > > > I water attentively for a couple years after planting, then only when
> > > > weather is unusually dry. I shade the young grafted trees for two -
> > > > three years at site. I only plant trees in spring. I have tried
> > planting
> > > > at ground level and recently higher in mounds to discourage root rot
> > (no
> > > > indication of root rot, just varying procedures).
> > > >
> > > > I plant with no amendments in soil, but top with compost around the
> > > > site. The trunks are not smothered.
> > > >
> > > > This year, I transferred soil from a native pawpaw patch in the woods
> > to
> > > > the struggling small grafted trees in the hope they would get
> something
> > > > they needed. They still are struggling. I will see next year.
> > > >
> > > > Any ideas? Has anyone else dealt with this?
> > > >
> > > > Pawpawless in central NC zone 7a
> > > >
> > > > Elizabeth
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Elizabeth Hilborn, DVM
> > > > Bee Well Mobile Veterinary Services, PLLC
> > > > beewellvet.com
> > > >
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Re: [nafex] Leaves in hole before fruit tree

I'm with the others - no amendments. Early on in my orcharding career, I
dug those $100 dollar holes and amended with peat and composted sheep
manure... creating a 'bathtub' in my GOOD CLAY SOIL that essentially
drowned the grafted pecans I'd purchased. I have really nice soil, with
few rocks, and any more, I dig a $5 hole for a $10 tree.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 7:46 PM DB <pogohome@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am wondering if putting some dead leaves (that time of year) into the
> bottom of a hole before planting a tree would be of any benefit and add
> some biology to the clay.
> I have thick clay just a few inches down and want to do something to jump
> start the soil for when I plant the fruit
> <https://permies.com/t/52914/videos/grow-groceries-dvd-set-marjory> trees
> <https://permies.com/t/9758/woodland/man-planted-trees> (seedlings) in the
> spring. Pawpaw and American Persimmon.
> Since I have a concern with large rocks being just below the surface I will
> use a small backhoe to dig holes a couple feet deep and then fill the holes
> back in.
> I have ordered some expanded shale and was thinking of using some of the
> many oak leaves that get placed on the streets here.
> Would vermiculite or something else help here?
> Looking at a $100 hole for a $10 tree.
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Re: [nafex] Leaves in hole before fruit tree

I'm curious what others think of what I've been doing recently. I have reasonably nice soil, but it's full of rock of all different sizes, some large. So digging holes is very hard work. And I understand that it's important not to bend the roots of a young plant back on itself. So I've been digging a small hole for the "core" of the plant, and spreading out the roots on the top of the soil, and then digging a small trench for each root, often with a trowel. For instance, I planted some apple rootstock that was basically a stick with half a dozen long thread-like roots. So I dug a star, and spread out each root thread in a different direction.

It's a lot less digging. If I hit a large rock, I can guide the root around it. I've planted tree peonies, apples, and hazelnuts this way.

Nothing that I've planted that way has seemed to die of it, yet. (Plants that died mostly did so because a deer ate the whole plant. A tree peonies developed some fungal disease.) But I feel a little guilty when I do this.

Wishing you all a safe Thanksgiving,
Ginda Fisher
eastern MA, zone 6

> On Nov 23, 2020, at 7:32 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net> wrote:
>
> I echo Lee's advice. I never amend holes now, I plant in soil as it lays and top dress.
>
> My first experience growing fruit trees I amended all (very big) holes. They lasted about 12 years, got quite large, but when they started dying, a post mortem revealed roots did not penetrate beyond the original hole diameter.
>
> On 11/23/2020 6:13 AM, Lee Reich wrote:
>> And any material that dramatically changes the soil porosity creates a "pot in the ground" effect wherein roots stay inn the amended soil
>

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Re: [nafex] nafex Digest, Vol 242, Issue 6 - this is confusing! When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific, than "Re: Contents of nafex digest..."

On 11/23/2020 7:36 AM, nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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[nafex] paw-paw graft incompatibility

If you want to know about the possibility of graft incompatibility ask a
nursery owner that grafts a wide range of paw-paw varieties, it would
probably be more useful than searching the literature.

Nick England or Mike McKonkey come to mind.

I find this theory doubtful only because I haven't heard of it being a
problem when reading comments over the years of scores of hobbyists that
regularly graft them. Sometimes the people that do have information that
people that read about doing don't.
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