[nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

These terms, extreme acidic soil are not very specific. How about an
actual number? I've seen very productive apple trees with healthy foliage
as low as 5.2 pH. All the Cornell emphasis on a pH about 7 is an attempt
to get calcium into apples for storage, although I'm not sure if there is
research backing this up- I know varieties can produce calcium deficient
apples at that pH. Other sources suggest a pH of between 5.5 and 6.5, so
obviously apples are fairly adaptable.

According to Childers in his classic book "Fruit Science" there are some
very productive orchards in the south bordering the Mississippi river where
there is something like a permanent 18" water table. The key is for it to
contain a fairly constant layer of well aerated soil.

I once made a deal with a commercial apple grower in upstate NY of planting
nursery trees in between trees in new rows of replants. The soil was a
pretty heavy clay and in early spring every year had water pooled up on the
surface well into first growth. It was a very productive orchard with
impressive yields by any standard. Bruce Sallinger was the owner who also
owns an orchard in Putnam County, NY (Sallinger's). You can contact him if
you have any questions about that. It was an orchard he purchased after
going through the same agony of indecision you are. It was formerly a
dairy farm.
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Re: [nafex] rooting kakis

I never tried this myself. I read about the technique many years ago in some book.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at
http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

> On Jan 8, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to
> rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis planted
> at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is evidence
> that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation
> by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods fail.
> You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know.
>
> Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully with?
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[nafex] PLEASE READ: Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soil

I just got off the phone with a friend who grows persimmons, paw paws,
apples, plums, peaches, shagbark/shellbark hickories, pecans, black
walnuts, etc. in conditions that now have me EXCEPTIONALLY confused.

I've been to the orchard many times. The soil is deep, well-drained fine
sandy loam which is extreme acid to very acidic throughout the profile;
contains plenty of glauconite (iron potassium silicate, and is therefore a
great source of potassium).

Dominant Vegetation: Mixed oaks, American perismmon, yellow poplar, sweet
gum, red maple, American beech, and American holly. Understory species:
highbush blueberry, spicebush, viburnum, and greenbriar.

Two things:

1. The water table right now is about 1 foot under the ground level.
During the months of January through April, the seasonal water table is
supposed to be 18" to 40", according to the actual type "Adelphia high
glauconite variant fine sandy loam"; in the case of this specific property,
it's even a bit higher. His orchard is located in the lowland portion of
the property and, according to the wetland survey, is or was wetland.

2. The soil is acidic; he does not apply lime or any sort of amendments.
One pecan gets yellow leaves, which indicates a Zinc deficiency. The other
pecans do well. The hickories do great. Persimmons are great. Paw paws
are the awesome. There is are two apple trees that look very good. I
don't remember the condition of the peach or plum trees he has -- but I'll
ask about this, and take a look at them this year.


If the loam, sandy soil is described as being "extreme acid" and having a
seasonal water table that is just 18" to 40" bellow the ground, maybe the
property that I was considering being described as "acidic to very acidic"
(sandy, loamy) and having a seasonal water table that's 24" to 40" would be
acceptable.

Everything about that property, if I didn't see it myself, would tell me:
no apples, no pecans, etc. The only thing that I could think of is that
these things will grow, but aren't thriving or producing optimal crops. Or
maybe because the soil is sandy loam, there's plenty of oxygen getting into
the soil, which might make all the difference.

What does every one think about this?

Thank you,
Steve
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[nafex] rooting kakis

Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to
rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis planted
at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is evidence
that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation
by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods fail.
You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know.

Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully with?
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Re: [nafex] Lee's suggestion

A few years ago, I put down a couple dozen D. virginiana cuttings. Many of
them survived for several months, but when I dug them up, none had roots.

I also took a couple of kaki plants rooted on virginiana and planted them
sideways in a trench, with a couple feet of the scion underground. After
two or three years, the scions still hadn't rooted.

It seems that persimmons are very reluctant to put out roots from the
above-ground parts. Maybe there is some sort of trick that would coax them
into rooting. It would be very helpful to be able to root cuttings,
because I find that many grafts (even some virginiana on virginiana) fail
at the graft junction after a couple of years.

Here is a reference to the article on tissue culture of persimmons. It
looks simple enough to do at home if you are willing to spend a few hundred
dollars for equipment and supplies.
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/48/6/747.full

Fred

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Jerry Lehman <jwlehmantree@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 1/8/2017 11:27 AM, Melissa Kacalanos via nafex wrote:
>
>> Do we know that persimmons can root from the scion?
>>
> 10 years ago or more a fellow persimmon enthusiast, David Pierce, tried
> and tried to root persimmon cuttings. He used various rooting compounds,
> and chemical mixtures in his basement under controlled temperature and
> light conditions. He managed to get one cutting to develop one root and
> when he took it out of the liquid the root broke off. Under the right
> conditions they will develop callous but I've never seen any developed
> roots from the callous. They can be propagated in vitro and Prof. Paula
> Pijut at Purdue University researched the subject and wrote a paper on it.
> I have about a half dozen trees of Rosseyanka that she propagated in vitro
> that have been in the ground maybe 10 years but haven't borne any fruit.
> Acclamation (transferring from the test tube to soil) with persimmon is a
> big problem.
>
> Jerry
>
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Re: [nafex] Jay Cutts's question

When I used grafted trees, the entire top, including the part above
ground but below the graft, was killed by cold. The only reason the
plant survived was that new shoots came up from the roots.

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
(505)-281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days

On 1/8/2017 9:07 AM, Alan Haigh wrote:
> "why would you want to kill the original rootstock?'
>
> The conversation was started by the suggestion that own rooted trees are
> hardier against cold than grafted ones, for one thing. Also, if you want
> to make use of suckers, this might assure that the suckers were trees of
> the grafted variety.
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Re: [nafex] Lee's suggestion

On 1/8/2017 11:27 AM, Melissa Kacalanos via nafex wrote:
> Do we know that persimmons can root from the scion?
10 years ago or more a fellow persimmon enthusiast, David Pierce, tried
and tried to root persimmon cuttings. He used various rooting compounds,
and chemical mixtures in his basement under controlled temperature and
light conditions. He managed to get one cutting to develop one root and
when he took it out of the liquid the root broke off. Under the right
conditions they will develop callous but I've never seen any developed
roots from the callous. They can be propagated in vitro and Prof. Paula
Pijut at Purdue University researched the subject and wrote a paper on
it. I have about a half dozen trees of Rosseyanka that she propagated in
vitro that have been in the ground maybe 10 years but haven't borne any
fruit. Acclamation (transferring from the test tube to soil) with
persimmon is a big problem.

Jerry
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