Re: [nafex] деревянные черенки просил

Holy shit Batman! 98 different varieties of various species,
unbelievable. Are they establishing a fruiting botanical repository?
They have ordered before so apparently they have the ability to pay.

I'm quite certain MB 3 is not a hybrid, rather an open pollinated
seedling of Morris Burton that John Gordon selected from seeds he
planted. I have it here and I'm not impressed because it is very late.
Some of the fruit is still on the ground and I don't see much deer
activity around it, nothing like deer Candy although location could have
a bearing. The fruit is large and colorful flavor good but I do not
believe it's a hybrid. In fact I'm planning on cutting my tree down to
make space for pawpaws.

I really question many persimmon that are being called hybrids. For
example I've seen it claimed that Keener is a hybrid, and I don't see
it. Anyway!

Below is the list of material he has requested that I can help you with
if you don't have it. 275-69 and 275-70 is in very short supply as they
are located next to the driveway going straight back to the orchard and
in shade part of the day. I plan on grafting it here this spring which
will require my holding at least one stick of wood for myself of each. I
wonder if 250-48 is a mistake, someone getting the numbers mixed up. I
do have such a tree but I don't recall calling attention to it. Just
checked my field notes, generally it is average to large but none of the
notes say exceptional taste. I hate to start distributing average
material if the buyer believes it is superior. If he is just looking for
genetic diversity then that would be okay. It is a Davis X SN-15 cross.

Jerry

On 1/27/2017 12:20 AM, England's Orchard and NUrseryEngland's Orchard
and NUrsery wrote:
>
> PAWPAWS:
>
> 1. 250-39;
>
> 2. 250-48;
>
> 3. 275-48;
>
> .4. 250-30;
>
> 5. 275-17;
>
> 28. 275-56;
>
> 42. 275-69;
>
> 43. 275-70;
>
> PERSIMMONS – Virginiana (V):
>
> 44. H-120 (V);
>
> 45. Lena / Mitchellena (V);
>
> 46. Mohler (V);
>
> 47. 100-47 (V);
>
> 48. NC-10 (V);
>
> 49. U20A Celebrity (V);
>
> 50. Wonderful (V);
>
> PERSIMMONS - Hybrids Virginiana X Kaki (V x K):
>
> 50. Morris Burton # 3 (V x K);
>
>

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Re: [nafex] Jesuit Pear

Looks very much like a seckle.



> On Jan 26, 2017, at 4:46 PM, mIEKAL aND <qazingulaza@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The pear repository has a number of cultivars listed called Mission
> pears which is listed as a synonym in the article you posted. They
> look to have a different shape than the photo of the fruit in the
> article but who knows.
>
> https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/accessiondetail.aspx?accid=%20PI+617580
>
> ~mIEKAL
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Mike Levine <mlevine@umich.edu> wrote:
>> Has anyone heard of the Jesuit Pears that grow in Detroit, MI and Windsor
>> Ontario or similar places? Does anyone have any information about the
>> location of these trees, grafting them, flavor and uses, or any other
>> useful information? Slow Food is considering adding them to the Ark of
>> Taste.
>>
>> https://www.slowfoodusa.org/ark-item/jesuit-pear
>>
>> And that page links to this and some of the other pages out there:
>> http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-317/Jesuit_Pear_Trees.html
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>> Mike Levine
>> Ann Arbor, MI
>> www.natureandnurtureseeds.com
>> Heirloom and open pollinated seeds for the Great Lakes and beyond
>> __________________
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Re: [nafex] Jesuit Pear

The pear repository has a number of cultivars listed called Mission
pears which is listed as a synonym in the article you posted. They
look to have a different shape than the photo of the fruit in the
article but who knows.

https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/accessiondetail.aspx?accid=%20PI+617580

~mIEKAL

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Mike Levine <mlevine@umich.edu> wrote:
> Has anyone heard of the Jesuit Pears that grow in Detroit, MI and Windsor
> Ontario or similar places? Does anyone have any information about the
> location of these trees, grafting them, flavor and uses, or any other
> useful information? Slow Food is considering adding them to the Ark of
> Taste.
>
> https://www.slowfoodusa.org/ark-item/jesuit-pear
>
> And that page links to this and some of the other pages out there:
> http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-317/Jesuit_Pear_Trees.html
>
>
> thanks,
> Mike Levine
> Ann Arbor, MI
> www.natureandnurtureseeds.com
> Heirloom and open pollinated seeds for the Great Lakes and beyond
> __________________
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> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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[nafex] NAFEX/NNGA annual meeting 2017

We have space available for 40 additional speakers. Mark your calendars
now and plan to attend.
*2017 ANNUAL CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR PAPERS *
The North American Fruit Explorers and the Northern Nut Growers
Association announce their joint conference (annual meeting) which will
be held at the University of Georgia, Tifton Conference Center, from
Sunday, August 13 through Wednesday, August 16, 2017. Participants will
be able to attend both nut and fruit sessions for the registration fee.
Members receive a discount, while the registration fee will entitle
non-members to one year's free on-line membership in either the NNGA or
NAFEX. A listing of the presenters, registration information,
discounted hotel accommodations, and travel information will be posted
on our web sites, www.nafex.org and www.nutgrowing.org by mid-February.
Here is the proposed agenda:
Board meetings will be held on Sunday morning. Registration will take
place on Sunday afternoon, followed by a Welcome Buffet Dinner. At 7:00
PM we will have a Show and Tell Session, where members can talk about
their nut and fruit growing experiences.
Monday and Tuesday are devoted to scientific and technical presentations
on growing nuts and fruits. There will be presentations on other
agricultural crops and on marketing strategies. A wide variety of
speakers will be invited including researchers, commercial growers, and
backyard enthusiasts. There will be concurrent presentations, along
with Open Space and breakout sessions. You may attend sessions on the
subjects of your choice.
Monday evening will feature our annual auction. This is a great way to
have fun while raising money for the research efforts of both
organizations. It is also an opportunity to advertise your product to a
captive audience. Hand made donations, seedlings, nuts and fruits,
baked goods, and unique products for this event are needed.
Tuesday evening's theme is "Georgia on My Mind", with traditional
Southern food and entertainment. We will conclude the business meeting,
which opened on Monday morning, select the "Big Nut" for the year, and
enjoy an evening of socialization.
Wednesday will be devoted to a tour of the University of Georgia's
experimental plantings; the Future Farmstead, which is an energy
independent experimental farm and farmstead; the USDA station in Byron
Georgia; and the Fort Valley Agricultural College. At the end of the
tour, we will have dinner at the scenic Horse Creek Winery in Sparks,
Georgia.
Separate activities are planned for CAP (Companions Alternate Program)
for the spouses and those accompanying members. Among these is the trip
to the Georgia Museum of Agriculture in Tifton. The goal is to have
something for everyone.
CALL FOR PAPERS We have 30 to 40 minute time slots for the formal
presentations on Monday and Tuesday. Show and Tell talks can be
anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes. We welcome your contribution as a
speaker. PowerPoint (AV) projectors will be available. If you would
like to offer a presentation or a less formal talk, please contact our
Conference Program Director, Prof. Michele Warmund at
warmundm@missouri.edu. For other questions or information, contact Jerry
Henkin, Chair of the 2017 NAFEX/NNGA Conference, at sproutnut@aol.com,
(914) 282 – 1371.
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[nafex] Jesuit Pear

Has anyone heard of the Jesuit Pears that grow in Detroit, MI and Windsor
Ontario or similar places? Does anyone have any information about the
location of these trees, grafting them, flavor and uses, or any other
useful information? Slow Food is considering adding them to the Ark of
Taste.

https://www.slowfoodusa.org/ark-item/jesuit-pear

And that page links to this and some of the other pages out there:
http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-317/Jesuit_Pear_Trees.html


thanks,
Mike Levine
Ann Arbor, MI
www.natureandnurtureseeds.com
Heirloom and open pollinated seeds for the Great Lakes and beyond
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[nafex] Sib C peach seed

Does anyone need some? They are available in Hong Kong.
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[nafex] Quince fruiting

I have lost track of how this works, so forgive me if things go astray. I know nothing about
the biology of quince trees. But I planted a 2 year-old Quince of Portugal in my orchard in
Nova Scotia, (zone 5b), 6 years ago. It grew a good 3 ft. that first year, No fruit in year 2,
(3'rd leaf). Next year, (4'th leaf) produced 12 one pound fruits. Following year 24 lb. of fruit,
next year 36 lb, and this past year 42 lb.. No diseases of any sort, no insect attack of any
sort. Just grows and fruits in abundance.

An interesting sidelight on this is that it was apparently usual for farmsteads (at least locally)
to have one or two quince trees planted near the house, to supply the pectin for fall canning
activities. I am aware of a couple of old farms locally where the old quince trees, (no longer
named) continue to grow adjacent to the 100 year-old farmhouse, so it is obviously not
unusual. I do not believe we have CAR in this area. (We do have heavy scab pressure,
being right on the water. But the quince seems completely immune to apple scab.)

Now, to the question of what flower buds look like. I have no "book knowledge", but have
gone out to look at my tree. It is very apparent that there are no clear flower buds, in the
manner of apples. (On an apple tree, it is obvious what is a vergatative bud, and what will be
a flower this spring). I do not know whether there is some means of including pictures in this
listserv, but if it is felt to be useful, if somebody wants to give me guidance, I can post a
picture. But, basically, my interpretation, (and again, I emphasize that I know nothing, and
can only go on my own observations and interpretation), is that the Google entry is actually
pretty accurate. I have looked at a spur where a fruit developed last year - a short (2") stub,
with the scar where the fruit dehisced, at the end. This stub has a dormant bud towards the
base,, followed by 3 short "sprouts" towards the distal end, each with 3 or 4 buds, with 2 of
these buds being closely grouped at the tips. There is nothing which looks clearly like a
flower vs, fruit bud - all the buds are small and fairly tightly applied to the stem. But I am
reasonable sure that what happens in the spring is that one of the two buds at the terninal
end of each of these twigs grows for a couple of inches, then produces a flower bud, which
then blooms, terminating the growth on that particular twig. The other adjacent bud may or
may not also grow out, and if it does do so, it does not terminate in a blossom, but makes a
new branch. So, my observation would suggest that there really are no flower buds visible on
the the previous year's growth, and that the flowers are produced in the spring from new
wood which has grown in the very early part of the seqason, (ie. on the current year's
growth).
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Re: [nafex] Speaking of quince

Jay,

That quoted text is poorly written and confusing, in my opinion. Quince flower formation is much like their apple and pear relatives. It is true that there is a greater tendency for terminal flowers and solitary flowers compared to apples and pears, but the fat flower buds form on previous year's wood, so there are flower buds in the winter.

They look fatter than vegetative buds. I removed my last C. oblonga, so I can't send a picture. Are your trees growing vigourously? Maybe they just haven't set flower buds yet. Your climate should be pretty similar to mine, so I don't think the winters would be harsh enough to wipe out the flower buds.

Precocity does seem to vary widely by cultivar and nitrogen availability.

Best regards,

Anton
Piedmont, NC

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com>
>Sent: Jan 16, 2017 11:46 PM
>To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Subject: Re: [nafex] Speaking of quince
>
>I'm trying to find pictures of the flower buds in the winter but here's
>an interesting quote:
>
>/The flowers are not from fruit buds formed in the autumn; after a woody
>shoot has grown several inches, a flower is produced which terminates
>the season's growth of that shoot.//
>/
>https://books.google.com/books?id=47gUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=cydonia+flower+buds&source=bl&ots=q8Vj_w14rA&sig=u76ao6L-lYbf76R8xtK-DJSaLWI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ7e31rsjRAhWr6YMKHYjKDew4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=cydonia%20flower%20buds&f=false
>
>So that makes it sound like there are no flower buds during the winter -
>that they would only form in the spring after growth has begun. So why
>am I not getting flowers??
>
>Regards,
>
>Jay
>
>Jay Cutts
>Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>(505)-281-0684
>10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>
>On 1/16/2017 6:20 PM, Richard Moyer wrote:
>> Jay,
>> Have you considered clipping some twigs and forcing some buds, inside in
>> water? We've done that before with Chaenomeles quince. They work well for
>> us here in the S. Appalachians, where we have significant fireblight and
>> rust pressure.
>>
>> Richard Moyer
>> Russell Co., SW VA
>> __________________
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Re: [nafex] Speaking of quince

I'm trying to find pictures of the flower buds in the winter but here's
an interesting quote:

/The flowers are not from fruit buds formed in the autumn; after a woody
shoot has grown several inches, a flower is produced which terminates
the season's growth of that shoot.//
/
https://books.google.com/books?id=47gUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=cydonia+flower+buds&source=bl&ots=q8Vj_w14rA&sig=u76ao6L-lYbf76R8xtK-DJSaLWI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ7e31rsjRAhWr6YMKHYjKDew4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=cydonia%20flower%20buds&f=false

So that makes it sound like there are no flower buds during the winter -
that they would only form in the spring after growth has begun. So why
am I not getting flowers??

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
(505)-281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days

On 1/16/2017 6:20 PM, Richard Moyer wrote:
> Jay,
> Have you considered clipping some twigs and forcing some buds, inside in
> water? We've done that before with Chaenomeles quince. They work well for
> us here in the S. Appalachians, where we have significant fireblight and
> rust pressure.
>
> Richard Moyer
> Russell Co., SW VA
> __________________
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> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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Re: [nafex] Speaking of quince

Jay,
Have you considered clipping some twigs and forcing some buds, inside in
water? We've done that before with Chaenomeles quince. They work well for
us here in the S. Appalachians, where we have significant fireblight and
rust pressure.

Richard Moyer
Russell Co., SW VA
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Re: [nafex] speaking of quinces

Hi, Anton.

Thanks for checking in. I've still never seen a flower on the tree. I
think I have an idea of what a flower bud might look like and it seems
like I've seen a few but no flower. I'm going to try a different variety
and see how it does.

I wish I knew how to identify flower buds on it. Then I could check and
see if there are any and if they seem to lose viability at some point
before spring.

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
(505)-281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days

On 1/16/2017 3:49 PM, Anton Callaway wrote:
> Jay,
>
> How are your quinces doing?
>
> Embarassingly, I just noticed that you had attempted to send an email to me last year. I was cleaning up my overflowing inbox and saw that the spamblocker was overly protective and furthermore has auto-deleted the original message.
>
> Please accept my apologies for the very late response.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Anton
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com>
>> Sent: May 21, 2016 11:20 AM
>> To: Anton Callaway <marillen@earthlink.net>, mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: [nafex] speaking of quinces
>>
>> I have a quince tree here at 7000 feet elevation in NM. It's at least 15
>> years old.
>>
>> It has never flowered. Anyone have any ideas why? Could it be that the
>> cold kills the flower buds? We're not that frigid here (maybe zone 4)
>> but the winters are dry, sunny and windy.
>>
>> Is there any other possible reason? Is there some way I could check to
>> see if it has even formed flower buds in the fall?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> Jay Cutts
>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>> (505)-281-0684
>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>>
>> On 5/21/2016 9:42 AM, Anton Callaway wrote:
>>> Betsy,
>>>
>>> I've been growing quinces for a few decades, but have just about given up because of rust. If you can't wipe out all the red cedar trees within a 10 mile radius (that's an exaggeration), then you will have problems with rust. My last ditch effort was to bring in a 'Lisle's Special' quince, which was purported to be resistant to rust. It is not. I took out the tree last year. The only quince I have remaining is a seedling of Lisle's Special. It is also showing a lot of rust. I expect it will be yanked out, too in a few years.
>>>
>>> Sorry for the bad news. I love the fruit also.
>>>
>>> Lester Davis gave me a quince-like tree a few years ago. It is certainly not C. oblonga, but the fruit is similar in flavor. It gets rust, but not so severely that I want to remove it. It also has a wonderful fragrance akin to the C. oblonga fruit from my grandmother's yard and the exfoliating bark is quite ornamental. You might contact him for more information.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Anton
>>> Piedmont region of NC, near RTP
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
>>>> Sent: May 17, 2016 8:38 PM
>>>> To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>> Subject: [nafex] My poor young quince
>>>>
>>>> I have never tried growing Cydonia oblonga before as we have severe fire
>>>> blight here. However, a site opened up with good ventilation and first
>>>> AM sun. I love the fruit so I bought a tree. It arrived in our warm
>>>> early spring, I was able to protect it from the late freezes. It was
>>>> vigorous and put out at least 10 inches of new growth with healthy leaves.
>>>>
>>>> Now, although it has escaped fire blight, it is suffering extensively
>>> >from rust. The apical meristem is brown and necrotic, each leaf is at
>>>> least somewhat deformed and every petiole is swelling with future
>>>> fruiting bodies. One petiole has already started releasing spores.
>>>>
>>>> I feel like I have staked a goat out in a tiger infested jungle.
>>>>
>>>> So, does anyone have experience with this? Is this young tree destined
>>>> to die a long, protracted death, or can it survive this severe rust
>>>> infection? I would rather rip the quince out if it is a hopeless cause
>>>> for survival. This IS a bad rust year, my apples are suffering too - not
>>>> every year is so bad....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Betsy Hilborn
>>>> 7a Central NC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________
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Re: [nafex] speaking of quinces

Jay,

How are your quinces doing?

Embarassingly, I just noticed that you had attempted to send an email to me last year. I was cleaning up my overflowing inbox and saw that the spamblocker was overly protective and furthermore has auto-deleted the original message.

Please accept my apologies for the very late response.

Best regards,

Anton

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com>
>Sent: May 21, 2016 11:20 AM
>To: Anton Callaway <marillen@earthlink.net>, mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Subject: [nafex] speaking of quinces
>
>I have a quince tree here at 7000 feet elevation in NM. It's at least 15
>years old.
>
>It has never flowered. Anyone have any ideas why? Could it be that the
>cold kills the flower buds? We're not that frigid here (maybe zone 4)
>but the winters are dry, sunny and windy.
>
>Is there any other possible reason? Is there some way I could check to
>see if it has even formed flower buds in the fall?
>
>Regards,
>
>Jay
>
>Jay Cutts
>Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>(505)-281-0684
>10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>
>On 5/21/2016 9:42 AM, Anton Callaway wrote:
>> Betsy,
>>
>> I've been growing quinces for a few decades, but have just about given up because of rust. If you can't wipe out all the red cedar trees within a 10 mile radius (that's an exaggeration), then you will have problems with rust. My last ditch effort was to bring in a 'Lisle's Special' quince, which was purported to be resistant to rust. It is not. I took out the tree last year. The only quince I have remaining is a seedling of Lisle's Special. It is also showing a lot of rust. I expect it will be yanked out, too in a few years.
>>
>> Sorry for the bad news. I love the fruit also.
>>
>> Lester Davis gave me a quince-like tree a few years ago. It is certainly not C. oblonga, but the fruit is similar in flavor. It gets rust, but not so severely that I want to remove it. It also has a wonderful fragrance akin to the C. oblonga fruit from my grandmother's yard and the exfoliating bark is quite ornamental. You might contact him for more information.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Anton
>> Piedmont region of NC, near RTP
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
>>> Sent: May 17, 2016 8:38 PM
>>> To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Subject: [nafex] My poor young quince
>>>
>>> I have never tried growing Cydonia oblonga before as we have severe fire
>>> blight here. However, a site opened up with good ventilation and first
>>> AM sun. I love the fruit so I bought a tree. It arrived in our warm
>>> early spring, I was able to protect it from the late freezes. It was
>>> vigorous and put out at least 10 inches of new growth with healthy leaves.
>>>
>>> Now, although it has escaped fire blight, it is suffering extensively
>> >from rust. The apical meristem is brown and necrotic, each leaf is at
>>> least somewhat deformed and every petiole is swelling with future
>>> fruiting bodies. One petiole has already started releasing spores.
>>>
>>> I feel like I have staked a goat out in a tiger infested jungle.
>>>
>>> So, does anyone have experience with this? Is this young tree destined
>>> to die a long, protracted death, or can it survive this severe rust
>>> infection? I would rather rip the quince out if it is a hopeless cause
>>> for survival. This IS a bad rust year, my apples are suffering too - not
>>> every year is so bad....
>>>
>>>
>>> Betsy Hilborn
>>> 7a Central NC
>>>
>>>
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[nafex] Szukis x Rosseyanka/Nikita's Gift?

Regarding hybrid persimmons --

1. Is it possible that Rosseyanka (hybrid persimmon) or Nikita's Gift
(hybrid persimmon) might sport a few male limbs/flowers on occasion?

2. If this is possible... is it also possible that a pollinator might visit
a male blossom on Rosseyanka/Nikita's Gift and transfer this pollen to the
female blossom of a nearby pure American persimmon (northern strain; 90-c),
that viable seed would be produced through the crossing?

3. Can a 100% pure male American persimmon (northern strain) openly
pollinated cross with Rosseyanka/Nikita's Gift, that viable seed would be
produced; correct?


Lastly, does anyone one have a collection of American persimmons that have
no near by male persimmon trees -- no pollinator tree EXCEPT for Szukis?
That they could send (/sell) me seed?

Thank you very much,
Steve
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Re: [nafex] answering Steven Covacci

A lot of organic matter in the soil also helps. I rarely test the pH of the soil beneath my blueberries. They grow exceptionally well — about 12 quarts per year per plant! Part of the reason is that the plants have gotten about a 3 inch depth of woodchips, shavings, or leaves every autumn.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at
http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

> On Jan 9, 2017, at 5:49 PM, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My point was that I don't actually believe magnesium is the issue with
> blueberries and plenty of experimentation has been done on the subject
> because it is a commercial crop plant. I won't believe it until I see
> corroborative research. There are lots of home grown geniuses out there
> that derive too much certainty from a small amount of anecdotal evidence
> and then can't wait to share with the world some earth altering discovery
> that is actually a false logical leap. Since that describes me at times
> (hopefully less often as I age) I know what I'm talking about.
>
> My current anecdotal observation is that blueberries can find the iron they
> need if a portion of their root systems are in acidic enough soil, even
> when perhaps the majority of their roots are in soil much sweeter than
> acceptable range for the plant. Carl Whitcomb has already proven that this
> situation applies to pin oaks, where recently surface applied sulfur cured
> iron deficient chlorosis in pin oaks without measurably altering soil pH
> even an inch down.
>
> Years ago I claimed you could grow highbush blueberries in soil up to the
> mid-sixes if plants were mulched with a wood based product. On an on-line
> argument with a troll type I was told I was an idiot to which I responded
> that I've tested the soil in several productive stands of blueberries that
> were mulched and had a pH in the low to mid 6's. Then I started thinking
> about it and went to my own stand of blueberries which was one of my
> examples. I had been piling mulch annually on these plants for almost 20
> years. Testing the top 6-8 inches of soil gave me a reading of about 6.2
> pH. But when I went down a foot I got 5.6 which is just on the acceptable
> cusp of blueberry soil. Now my logical leap is to join the orthodoxy. I
> swallowed my pride and gave public credit to the troll, by the way.
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Re: [nafex] answering Steven Covacci

Alan,

I'm highly impressed with the thoroughness of your thinking, for a lack of
a better phrase. You're comments and points are very often exceptional.

Steve

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:

> My point was that I don't actually believe magnesium is the issue with
> blueberries and plenty of experimentation has been done on the subject
> because it is a commercial crop plant. I won't believe it until I see
> corroborative research. There are lots of home grown geniuses out there
> that derive too much certainty from a small amount of anecdotal evidence
> and then can't wait to share with the world some earth altering discovery
> that is actually a false logical leap. Since that describes me at times
> (hopefully less often as I age) I know what I'm talking about.
>
> My current anecdotal observation is that blueberries can find the iron they
> need if a portion of their root systems are in acidic enough soil, even
> when perhaps the majority of their roots are in soil much sweeter than
> acceptable range for the plant. Carl Whitcomb has already proven that this
> situation applies to pin oaks, where recently surface applied sulfur cured
> iron deficient chlorosis in pin oaks without measurably altering soil pH
> even an inch down.
>
> Years ago I claimed you could grow highbush blueberries in soil up to the
> mid-sixes if plants were mulched with a wood based product. On an on-line
> argument with a troll type I was told I was an idiot to which I responded
> that I've tested the soil in several productive stands of blueberries that
> were mulched and had a pH in the low to mid 6's. Then I started thinking
> about it and went to my own stand of blueberries which was one of my
> examples. I had been piling mulch annually on these plants for almost 20
> years. Testing the top 6-8 inches of soil gave me a reading of about 6.2
> pH. But when I went down a foot I got 5.6 which is just on the acceptable
> cusp of blueberry soil. Now my logical leap is to join the orthodoxy. I
> swallowed my pride and gave public credit to the troll, by the way.
> __________________
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Re: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime?

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Steven Covacci <filtertitle@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Ordinarily, I would be concerned with the fact that the pH will be 5.0 --
> however, with the presence of the specific minerals in the soil, I wonder
> if these abundance/presence of these will help compensate for the low pH.
>
> The mineralogy is dominated by quartz and feldspars -- with some mica and
> ferromagnesian minerals.
>

Apply to the soil surface & forget tillage to raise pH:

dolomitic lime, pulverized
high calcium lime, pulverized
oyster/seashell, pulverized
aragonite
siltation pond fines from local rock quarries (rock dust)


--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
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Re: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime?

On Jan 9, 2017, at 10:58 AM, Steven Covacci wrote:

> if I incorporate lime
> into the planting hole for each individual tree (in addition to applying
> some overall tot he surface), won't what I added to the hole eventually get
> used up, so that this is only a temporary benefit.

Presuming that lime applied to the surface works its way down through the soil, though very slowly, if enough is applied so that it's not all neutralized right near the surface: the idea is that the lime incorporated at planting provides benefit through the root zone to start with, and then as its effects wane they're replaced by surface applications which have worked their way down. Later surface applications every few years as per soil test replace the first one, and so on.




-- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
Fresh-market organic produce, small scale




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[nafex] answering Steven Covacci

My point was that I don't actually believe magnesium is the issue with
blueberries and plenty of experimentation has been done on the subject
because it is a commercial crop plant. I won't believe it until I see
corroborative research. There are lots of home grown geniuses out there
that derive too much certainty from a small amount of anecdotal evidence
and then can't wait to share with the world some earth altering discovery
that is actually a false logical leap. Since that describes me at times
(hopefully less often as I age) I know what I'm talking about.

My current anecdotal observation is that blueberries can find the iron they
need if a portion of their root systems are in acidic enough soil, even
when perhaps the majority of their roots are in soil much sweeter than
acceptable range for the plant. Carl Whitcomb has already proven that this
situation applies to pin oaks, where recently surface applied sulfur cured
iron deficient chlorosis in pin oaks without measurably altering soil pH
even an inch down.

Years ago I claimed you could grow highbush blueberries in soil up to the
mid-sixes if plants were mulched with a wood based product. On an on-line
argument with a troll type I was told I was an idiot to which I responded
that I've tested the soil in several productive stands of blueberries that
were mulched and had a pH in the low to mid 6's. Then I started thinking
about it and went to my own stand of blueberries which was one of my
examples. I had been piling mulch annually on these plants for almost 20
years. Testing the top 6-8 inches of soil gave me a reading of about 6.2
pH. But when I went down a foot I got 5.6 which is just on the acceptable
cusp of blueberry soil. Now my logical leap is to join the orthodoxy. I
swallowed my pride and gave public credit to the troll, by the way.
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Re: [nafex] blueberries at high pH

@Alan: This is very interesting. How can one add sufficient levels of
magnesium to the soil? Epsom salt? Also, this is an idea: if pH is not
the real issue, and the absence of enough Mg is, why can't one add Dolomite
limestone to the soil for blueberries; higher pH and higher Mg would result.

@everyone: There are two varieties of northern high-bush bluery (V.
corymbosum) that I know of that can take more typical garden soil (clay,
higher pH)...

1. Jersey
2. Hardiblue

I think Reka too, and just read about one called Sunshine[something]. Does
anyone know any others.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:

> They?ll grow just fine in
> a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic
> matter. I?ve seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils."
>
> Once again, no actual numbers, so depends on what you mean by high pH. I
> have very productive blueberries in soil with the upper 8" of soil profile
> in the mid 6.s, but with about 5.6 below. Mulched soil, over time, swings
> towards neutral if you are starting in normal blueberry range. Most acid
> loving plants only need a percentage of their soil profile to be at a range
> where any given nutrients are readily available. Somehow, highbush
> northern blueberries must have ready access to free iron, apparently.
>
> Rabbiteye blueberries have different needs and can thrive in more alkaline
> soils, but there is supposedly some range of adaptability even between
> various northern highbush cultivars.
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Re: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime?

Comments for Rivka & Alan here bellow

Rivka@I will definitely test multiple areas on the site; hopefully some of
the ares are of high pH... woudln't doubt it. But if I incorporate lime
into the planting hole for each individual tree (in addition to applying
some overall tot he surface), won't what I added to the hole eventually get
used up, so that this is only a temporary benefit. Looks like the
advantage of this might be temporary. Also, I gather that it would be
acceptable for me to apply just on the surface, and not have to till it
in. If so, this is good. Yes -- more opposed to tillage on the site than
applying lime on surface. Secondly, since the soil is a course sandy loam
substrate that is loosely held together, I think that the lime would
penetrate into the soil. Lastly, since this particular soil contains
traces of magnesium, I think this would be of help.

@Alan: "Quick drainage and a moderate amount of water stress seems to send
the carbohydrates to fruit at the expense of vegetative growth." This is
good to know; and what I've always suspected I've observed -- or that
smaller fruit means more sugar per volume, as there is less water in the
fruit?

Thank you,
Steve



On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Road's End Farm <organic87@frontiernet.net>
wrote:

>
> On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:33 AM, Steven Covacci wrote:
>
> > I don't mind
> > scattering limestone gravel around for the surface layer. The last thing
> > I'm interested in doing is tilling up acres of ground and destroying,
> > simultaneously, acres of meadow habitat.
>
> Ah, I see. I was confused about why you were so opposed to lime; but
> you're not opposed to lime, you're opposed to tillage on this sort of site.
> That makes sense.
>
> How about incorporating lime through a sizeable planting hole for each
> individual tree, as well as applying some overall on the surface? Others on
> the list, would that work?
>
> And again: test the specific soil on that particular site, don't just look
> at the soil map. And test in several places. You may have some sizeable
> pockets of sweeter soil.
>
> I have certainly had very good flavored peaches from a field testing in
> the low 6's. I don't know about the low 5's; maybe somebody else does.
>
>
> -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
> Fresh-market organic produce, small scale
>
>
>
>
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Re: [nafex] rooting kakis / persimmons

I seem to recall reading a suggestion that the cause was a reversion to
the juvenile stage, or possibly in some cases propagation from juvenile
wood.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 16:24:50 -0500, "England's Orchard and
NUrseryEngland's Orchard and NUrsery" <nuttrees@prtcnet.org> wrote:
> RE: rooting kakis
>
<snip>

> Rooted trees take a very long time to produce fruit I do not know why
> and it
> is a draw back to the process and we should examine it again but the
> method
> is to just to slow to make any production of it profitable at this
> level
>
> This is just my 2 cents worth
>
> Happy New Years
>
> Cliff
>
> Thank you
> Kum Hui and Clifford England
> England's Orchard and Nursery

<snip.
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Re: [nafex] Stone fruit soil

On Jan 9, 2017, at 7:40 AM, Alan Haigh wrote:

> Sometimes practices and soils that
> encourage high brix also discourage large sized fruit.

They were relatively small peaches and plums; though that may have had to do with insufficient thinning.

-- Myro was indeed one of the rootstocks.

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Re: [nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime?

On Jan 9, 2017, at 12:33 AM, Steven Covacci wrote:

> I don't mind
> scattering limestone gravel around for the surface layer. The last thing
> I'm interested in doing is tilling up acres of ground and destroying,
> simultaneously, acres of meadow habitat.

Ah, I see. I was confused about why you were so opposed to lime; but you're not opposed to lime, you're opposed to tillage on this sort of site. That makes sense.

How about incorporating lime through a sizeable planting hole for each individual tree, as well as applying some overall on the surface? Others on the list, would that work?

And again: test the specific soil on that particular site, don't just look at the soil map. And test in several places. You may have some sizeable pockets of sweeter soil.

I have certainly had very good flavored peaches from a field testing in the low 6's. I don't know about the low 5's; maybe somebody else does.


-- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
Fresh-market organic produce, small scale




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Re: [nafex] rooting kakis / persimmons

On 1/8/2017 4:24 PM, England's Orchard and NUrseryEngland's Orchard and
NUrsery wrote:
> Rooted trees take a very long time to produce fruit I do not know why and it is a draw back to the process and we should examine it again but the method
> is to just to slow to make any production of it profitable at this level, Cliff
When you say rooted trees you're smean induced roots? The Rosseyanka
trees I have from Paula Pijut's in-vitro propagation would tend the back
that up. My experience is that grafted Rosseyanka, the same as Morris
Burton, do take longer to come into bearing after grafting than most
other persimmon varieties. Also my in-vitro Rosseyanka seem to be less
vigorous, but I can't say for sure because the timer or two when we had
a night of -10° and lower there was considerable winter freeze damage.
Jerry

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[nafex] blueberries at high pH

They?ll grow just fine in
a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic
matter. I?ve seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils."

Once again, no actual numbers, so depends on what you mean by high pH. I
have very productive blueberries in soil with the upper 8" of soil profile
in the mid 6.s, but with about 5.6 below. Mulched soil, over time, swings
towards neutral if you are starting in normal blueberry range. Most acid
loving plants only need a percentage of their soil profile to be at a range
where any given nutrients are readily available. Somehow, highbush
northern blueberries must have ready access to free iron, apparently.

Rabbiteye blueberries have different needs and can thrive in more alkaline
soils, but there is supposedly some range of adaptability even between
various northern highbush cultivars.
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[nafex] Stone fruit soil

,Rivka writes, "I've grown a whole lot of quality vegetables on what's not
supposed to be good vegetable ground; and some very nice-flavored peaches
and plums on what's not supposed to be good stone fruit ground."

The requirement of good drainage variation between plums on,say, myro, and
peaches on any of their common rootstocks is as varied as possible in the
realm of popular fruits. Myro not only does relatively well in poorly
drained soils, but, anecdotally, I have found that plums and only plums of
common fruits do not lose brix when produced in relatively wet soil.

In my experience and according to the literature, peaches are the opposite
of plums in this regard and, even in average textured soil, live longer
when grown on berms. In wet locations I can always grow them successfully
as long as I create mounds high enough to assure drainage, much like
blueberries can grow in a marsh on the raised soil formations they seem to
thrive on.

I manage over 100 mostly non-commercial orchards in a wide range of soil
types and it seems that the highest quality fruit comes from the sandiest
soils. Quick drainage and a moderate amount of water stress seems to send
the carbohydrates to fruit at the expense of vegetative growth. Wine
growers are intensely aware of this association because they are focused on
brix. Many fruit growers aren't so focused on this because customers judge
the purchase so much on appearance. Sometimes practices and soils that
encourage high brix also discourage large sized fruit.
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Re: [nafex] Found this online - is this true?

My guess is that it is not true. They get iron deficiency at higher pH levels (greater than about 6).
Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at
http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

> On Jan 9, 2017, at 3:36 AM, Steven Covacci <filtertitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Rhododendrons, for example, are often thought of as acid-loving. In
> reality, they love magnesium, which is sometimes more available at a low
> pH, and they aren't particularly fond of calcium. They'll grow just fine in
> a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic
> matter. I've seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils."
>
> Is this true?
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[nafex] Found this online - is this true?

"Rhododendrons, for example, are often thought of as acid-loving. In
reality, they love magnesium, which is sometimes more available at a low
pH, and they aren't particularly fond of calcium. They'll grow just fine in
a high pH soil if they have sufficient magnesium and lots of organic
matter. I've seen huge blueberry harvests on high pH soils."

Is this true?
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Re: [nafex] Jay Cutts's question

If I remember, the first few years the plant died back to the ground.
After that, maybe part of the top died and part survived, with some new
shoots from the ground.

I've never seen any evidence even of flowering. I'm not sure what kind
of enclosure would make any difference. It might protect the plant from
wind and sun but not from temperature. It was -1 degree the other night
here! It would be the same temperature inside any enclosure unless I had
supplemental heat.

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
(505)-281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days

On 1/8/2017 1:31 PM, Steven Covacci wrote:
> Interesting. How many years have passed until the plant was again killed
> down to the ground, to later re-sprout? I think you should great an
> enclosure for one so that it will fruit.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> wrote:
>
>> When I used grafted trees, the entire top, including the part above ground
>> but below the graft, was killed by cold. The only reason the plant survived
>> was that new shoots came up from the roots.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> Jay Cutts
>> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
>> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
>> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
>> (505)-281-0684
>> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>>
>> On 1/8/2017 9:07 AM, Alan Haigh wrote:
>>
>>> "why would you want to kill the original rootstock?'
>>>
>>> The conversation was started by the suggestion that own rooted trees are
>>> hardier against cold than grafted ones, for one thing. Also, if you want
>>> to make use of suckers, this might assure that the suckers were trees of
>>> the grafted variety.
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[nafex] Soil pH 5.0 -- with these minerals, no need to lime?

Hi,

This is a description of the soil that I would be working with, if I went
with this property.

Ordinarily, I would be concerned with the fact that the pH will be 5.0 --
however, with the presence of the specific minerals in the soil, I wonder
if these abundance/presence of these will help compensate for the low pH.

The mineralogy is dominated by quartz and feldspars -- with some mica and
ferromagnesian minerals.

Very deep well or moderately well drained soil formed in till on complex
hilly topography. Moderately deep to a fragipan, or dense, hard subsoil.
Permeability is moderately rapid to moderate above the fragipan and slow to
very slow in the fragipan. Rockaway soils developed in course or moderately
course textured till composed of granitic gneiss with smaller amounts of
quartzite, sandstone and shale. Natural vegetation is largely woodland
dominated by oak, ash and hickory with some maple, birch, and hemlock;
Rhododendron spp., Kalmi, Lindera benzoin, etc.. Depth to bedrock is
typically greater than 6 feet. Depth to the fragipan is 18 to 40 inches and
the thickness ranges from 12 to 36 inches. Rock fragments range from 5% to
65% of the soil's makeup. Reaction is strongly acid or very strongly acid
throughout; average pH of 5.0.

For growing stone fruits, paw paw, persimmon, pecan, and other fruit crops,
if I need to add lime, I will pass on this property.

I want to note that I researched the pH of the sandy soil (high seasonal
water table) that is found on my friend's property -- he grows all of the
above crops (again, including pecan) on sandy soil which is even more
acidic: pH of 4.6.

If the fruit would taste good and not have a great shelf-life, I'm ok with
this. If the shelf-life is poor and the quality (flavor) of the fruit is
compromised by a pH of 5.0, then I'll pass on the property. I don't mind
scattering limestone gravel around for the surface layer. The last thing
I'm interested in doing is tilling up acres of ground and destroying,
simultaneously, acres of meadow habitat. The ecological value of my
project is of equal importance to the permaculture value.

So, pH value of 5.0 with a soil rich in feldspars (which I suppose might
give off some calcite), and some iron/magnesian components as well.

Thank you,
Steve
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Re: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

@Betsy: This is sound advice. If I learn that pH of 5.0 is makes it a
maybe property, then I'll pass -- which is what I'm looking to find out.
Because I do not want to lime my fields. I will create a native
wildflower/grass meadow around the trees, just mowing under the areas near
the trunk, and do not anticipate tilling the soil on a repeated basis.

@Rivka: For sure some of these are cultivar and root-stock dependent. I
know of a situation of pecans growing on acidic, high-water table sandy
soil; all but one tree does well on those conditions there.

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Road's End Farm <organic87@frontiernet.net>
wrote:

> For what it's worth:
>
> When I first moved here, there were some naturalized daffodils growing in
> a wet spot where I was about to have some tile line put through. I dug some
> of them up, and, under the impression that if they were in a wet spot that
> must be what they liked, moved them to another wet spot on the property
> (neither spot is wet all year, but both are sodden for significant parts of
> every year, and shallow soil over rock outcrops). They naturalized on the
> new spot, and survived in the old one, and I now have daffodils coming up
> wild in both areas every spring (they've never gotten any further care.)
>
> Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil.
>
> For that matter, I've grown a whole lot of quality vegetables on what's
> not supposed to be good vegetable ground; and some very nice-flavored
> peaches and plums on what's not supposed to be good stone fruit ground. The
> trees were short lived, but that probably is due partly to climate and
> partly to my not having taken very good care of them.
>
> -- I suspect that some of these things are cultivar/root stock dependent;
> and also that at least some cultivars of most plants will do reasonably
> well in conditions that are less than theoretically ideal for them.
>
> The Extension and similar recommendations also tend to be for highest crop
> production, which is not necessarily the same as for best flavor, best
> insect resistance, etc. Are you intending to grow commercially? If so, are
> your markets likely to be willing to pay extra for flavor, or are they
> likely to only be interested in tonnage?
>
> (I seem to have moved from trying to talk you out of this place into
> trying to talk you into it. But on your further description it's neither as
> acidic nor as wet as I first thought you were describing.)
>
>
> -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
> Fresh-market organic produce, small scale
>
>
>
>
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Re: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

On Jan 8, 2017, at 7:33 PM, Lee Reich wrote:

> Are you sure you don't mean yellow flag iris?

Pretty sure. Doesn't look like the picture I found for those. Looks a lot more like this:

http://www.mooseyscountrygarden.com/flower-bulbs/bright-yellow-daffodil.html

-- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
Fresh-market organic produce, small scale




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Re: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

Are you sure you don't mean yellow flag iris?
Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at
http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

> On Jan 8, 2017, at 5:15 PM, Road's End Farm <organic87@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 8, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Gary Woods wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:03:27 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>> Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil.
>>
>> There is a wild narcissus that loves wet spot; could that be the one? When
>> I was a teen, a friend's house had a hill behind it sloping down to a
>> marshy spot that hosted masses of them.
>>
>
> I've no idea. It's a yellow old fashioned type daffodil. I was told that they had once been grown in beds near the house by previous owners, but somebody didn't like or didn't want to bother with them and threw them out in the fields, and they survived and grew out there.
>
>
> -- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
> Fresh-market organic produce, small scale
>
>
>
>
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Re: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

On Jan 8, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Gary Woods wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:03:27 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil.
>
> There is a wild narcissus that loves wet spot; could that be the one? When
> I was a teen, a friend's house had a hill behind it sloping down to a
> marshy spot that hosted masses of them.
>

I've no idea. It's a yellow old fashioned type daffodil. I was told that they had once been grown in beds near the house by previous owners, but somebody didn't like or didn't want to bother with them and threw them out in the fields, and they survived and grew out there.


-- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
Fresh-market organic produce, small scale




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Re: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:03:27 -0500, you wrote:

>Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil.

There is a wild narcissus that loves wet spot; could that be the one? When
I was a teen, a friend's house had a hill behind it sloping down to a
marshy spot that hosted masses of them.


--
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
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Re: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

For what it's worth:

When I first moved here, there were some naturalized daffodils growing in a wet spot where I was about to have some tile line put through. I dug some of them up, and, under the impression that if they were in a wet spot that must be what they liked, moved them to another wet spot on the property (neither spot is wet all year, but both are sodden for significant parts of every year, and shallow soil over rock outcrops). They naturalized on the new spot, and survived in the old one, and I now have daffodils coming up wild in both areas every spring (they've never gotten any further care.)

Years later, I read that daffodils must have well drained soil.

For that matter, I've grown a whole lot of quality vegetables on what's not supposed to be good vegetable ground; and some very nice-flavored peaches and plums on what's not supposed to be good stone fruit ground. The trees were short lived, but that probably is due partly to climate and partly to my not having taken very good care of them.

-- I suspect that some of these things are cultivar/root stock dependent; and also that at least some cultivars of most plants will do reasonably well in conditions that are less than theoretically ideal for them.

The Extension and similar recommendations also tend to be for highest crop production, which is not necessarily the same as for best flavor, best insect resistance, etc. Are you intending to grow commercially? If so, are your markets likely to be willing to pay extra for flavor, or are they likely to only be interested in tonnage?

(I seem to have moved from trying to talk you out of this place into trying to talk you into it. But on your further description it's neither as acidic nor as wet as I first thought you were describing.)


-- Rivka; Finger Lakes NY, Zone 6A now I think
Fresh-market organic produce, small scale




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Re: [nafex] rooting kakis / persimmons

RE: rooting kakis

For what this is worth
About 10 to 15 years ago we developed a method for in which we was stooling
persimmons some of you out there may still have some of them but it was
abandoned due to it was taking 2 to 3 year to bring off a crop of trees
In most cases we just do not have that kind of time to produce a crop of
nursery material / trees

But Lee R. was right by burying the grafted trees far below ground level and
inducing a type of slow injury to most any plant will cause adventitious
root to develop

We did it for about 4 to 5 year and then in Oct. 2004 I was call back to the
military / Army to serve in Iraq and well much of those project when to the
way side I'm still on the mends which has taken me over 10 year but by far
better than I was in 2006 some of those trees are thickets now and producing
fruit and have not been dug in years and for that matter most likely will
not be but the rooting or stool bedding of trees is not a new method

The issue at hand is time why take 2,3, even 4 year to stool trees when you
can graft one spring and produce trees that are 4, 5 ,6 feet tall and well
branched and ready to produce fruit

Rooted trees take a very long time to produce fruit I do not know why and it
is a draw back to the process and we should examine it again but the method
is to just to slow to make any production of it profitable at this level

This is just my 2 cents worth

Happy New Years

Cliff

Thank you
Kum Hui and Clifford England
England's Orchard and Nursery
2338 HIGHWAY 2004
Mc Kee,  KY.  40447-8342
Specializing in alternative crops.
www.nuttrees.net
Email:  nuttrees@prtcnet.org 
Ph. # 606 965 2228
See us On FACEBOOK @  https://www.facebook.com/Kynuttrees

https://www.facebook.com/KYorchard

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: rooting kakis (Lee Reich)
2. Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water,
acidic soi (Alan Haigh)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:51:49 -0500
From: Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com>
To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
<nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [nafex] rooting kakis
Message-ID: <58223AA6-821C-4640-A96D-CE89646AA5CB@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I never tried this myself. I read about the technique many years ago in some
book.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at
http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener?s Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

> On Jan 8, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to
> rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis planted
> at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is
evidence
> that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation
> by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods fail.
> You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know.
>
> Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully
with?
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:57:27 -0500
From: Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com>
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in
high-water, acidic soi
Message-ID:
<CAEGtZJz4jz9ZZeZp+Fsk8DShw2CpX=N3vgQ5xonwvoRG9SSRoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

These terms, extreme acidic soil are not very specific. How about an
actual number? I've seen very productive apple trees with healthy foliage
as low as 5.2 pH. All the Cornell emphasis on a pH about 7 is an attempt
to get calcium into apples for storage, although I'm not sure if there is
research backing this up- I know varieties can produce calcium deficient
apples at that pH. Other sources suggest a pH of between 5.5 and 6.5, so
obviously apples are fairly adaptable.

According to Childers in his classic book "Fruit Science" there are some
very productive orchards in the south bordering the Mississippi river where
there is something like a permanent 18" water table. The key is for it to
contain a fairly constant layer of well aerated soil.

I once made a deal with a commercial apple grower in upstate NY of planting
nursery trees in between trees in new rows of replants. The soil was a
pretty heavy clay and in early spring every year had water pooled up on the
surface well into first growth. It was a very productive orchard with
impressive yields by any standard. Bruce Sallinger was the owner who also
owns an orchard in Putnam County, NY (Sallinger's). You can contact him if
you have any questions about that. It was an orchard he purchased after
going through the same agony of indecision you are. It was formerly a
dairy farm.


------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

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------------------------------

End of nafex Digest, Vol 196, Issue 53
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Re: [nafex] Jay Cutts's question

Interesting. How many years have passed until the plant was again killed
down to the ground, to later re-sprout? I think you should great an
enclosure for one so that it will fruit.



On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> wrote:

> When I used grafted trees, the entire top, including the part above ground
> but below the graft, was killed by cold. The only reason the plant survived
> was that new shoots came up from the roots.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jay
>
> Jay Cutts
> Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
> Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
> Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
> (505)-281-0684
> 10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days
>
> On 1/8/2017 9:07 AM, Alan Haigh wrote:
>
>> "why would you want to kill the original rootstock?'
>>
>> The conversation was started by the suggestion that own rooted trees are
>> hardier against cold than grafted ones, for one thing. Also, if you want
>> to make use of suckers, this might assure that the suckers were trees of
>> the grafted variety.
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Re: [nafex] rooting kakis

I currently have a test plot of American persimmon where the soil line is
several inches higher than it should be -- too see if rooting will occur;
or if rotting won't occur, for that matter. I read that, under laboratory
conditions, there was success in rooting persimmon scions -- including
Szukis, in specific, and I think that I read that the trees survived. I'll
have to find the article sometime.

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:

> I never tried this myself. I read about the technique many years ago in
> some book.
>
> Lee Reich, PhD
> Come visit my farmden at
> http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
> http://leereich.com <http://leereich.com/>
>
> Books by Lee Reich:
> A Northeast Gardener's Year
> The Pruning Book
> Weedless Gardening
> Uncommon Fruits for every Garden
> Landscaping with Fruit
> Grow Fruit Naturally
>
> > On Jan 8, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Trees that don't root from cuttings still sometimes root above grafts to
> > rootstock when planted too deep, however the experiment with kakis
> planted
> > at a slant, leaving a stretch of the scion in contact with soil is
> evidence
> > that kakis might not. though certainly not proof. The slow strangulation
> > by way of copper wire might induce above rooting where other methods
> fail.
> > You'd just have to try it with a few trees to know.
> >
> > Lee, do you know of species this trick has been attempted successfully
> with?
> > __________________
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Re: [nafex] Example of stonefruits nut trees thriving in high-water, acidic soi

Hi Alan,

Super insightful. The pH of the property I'm looking into is pH 5.5 on the
top down to 5.0 in the subsoil. The soil of the other property is 5.0 and
sometimes just under 5.0. I was very interested to know that emphasis on
pH could be about getting calcium into the fruit for storage; I now
remember that with respect to persimmon cultivation. This is a good point
in favor of growing on soils which are circum-neutral; something that I
need to keep in mind. I was interested also to know that there are areas
where even a permanent water table of 18" works.

That's the key -- as you say: having a failry constant layer of
well-aerated soil. This, to my thinking, should be the reason that my
friend is able to grow stone fruits and Asian pears on soil with a water
table that is just 12" under the surface during the late winter months; his
soil is sandy loam that is very loose. The soil of the property I'm
describing is very similarly structured -- and the water table is a bit
lower.

I a definitely going through a great deal of agony-of-indecision. I was
greatly disappointed this weekend when my realtor contacted me regarding a
listing that he said was expired - and therefore available. I researched
it all weekend. A great amount of space, amazing soils (deep,
well-drained, circum-neutral), nice wetlands, nice uplands, nice rocky
outcroppings, nice deep fields without a high water table.. literally
exactly what I was hoping for). He made a mistake -- it was under
contract, as I told him it was.. I knew it was, but thought.. maybe it fell
through. The only reason that I'm not holding out until something as
impressive like that one shows up is because it was the only one that fit
exactly what I was looking for in the past year. So, statistically, maybe
another one like it one come up for year -- and because the property with
acidic soil and a seasonally high water table has some exceptional
characteristics in terms of natural beauty and location that has me willing
to consider it.. so long as I can grow nearly all that I intend to, which
-- given that the soils are gravely, sandy, loamy and the issue of the
seasonally high water table isn't that bad, and the soil is not more acidic
than 5.0 -- I think that I might as well further research it and begin
doing official soil samples.

Thank you,
Steve

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Alan Haigh <alandhaigh@gmail.com> wrote:

> These terms, extreme acidic soil are not very specific. How about an
> actual number? I've seen very productive apple trees with healthy foliage
> as low as 5.2 pH. All the Cornell emphasis on a pH about 7 is an attempt
> to get calcium into apples for storage, although I'm not sure if there is
> research backing this up- I know varieties can produce calcium deficient
> apples at that pH. Other sources suggest a pH of between 5.5 and 6.5, so
> obviously apples are fairly adaptable.
>
> According to Childers in his classic book "Fruit Science" there are some
> very productive orchards in the south bordering the Mississippi river where
> there is something like a permanent 18" water table. The key is for it to
> contain a fairly constant layer of well aerated soil.
>
> I once made a deal with a commercial apple grower in upstate NY of planting
> nursery trees in between trees in new rows of replants. The soil was a
> pretty heavy clay and in early spring every year had water pooled up on the
> surface well into first growth. It was a very productive orchard with
> impressive yields by any standard. Bruce Sallinger was the owner who also
> owns an orchard in Putnam County, NY (Sallinger's). You can contact him if
> you have any questions about that. It was an orchard he purchased after
> going through the same agony of indecision you are. It was formerly a
> dairy farm.
> __________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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