Subject: Re: [nafex] Care of D. kaki seedlings
Generally Speaking Jerry Lehman is Correct I have never been able to over
winter anything out side with the exception of Seedling rootstock without
some type of damage.
But what we have been doing since 2014 is building a rampart of
containers Stacked no more that 3 high end on end with all air space
utilized by stacking the pots tightly together And building a berm with
Straw that encompasses the seedling trees in all direction 2 bale high it
can be up against the tightly sealed building or in a crawl space "L" shaped
area so that you do not have to use so much straw and Covering with one peel
segment of the straw deep till tightly covered and then one bale spread out
on top to insulate the layers
The justification for this is the straw will begin to break down with
long exposure to Rain / snow and snow is what you want to blanket the straw
I keep using the word straw because Field is not advised because of the
weeds, brambles sticks and such
I have seen the straw hold snow well into Spring the only issue I have found
that it is a mess to clean up in the spring and this is how we hold
thousands of Seedling during the winter months
By experience is that if the roots are in a saturated mixture ( Wet Soil )
when they freeze the root are insulated more so than if the soil in the pots
are Dry and in the case of the dry roots the Roots freeze dry and the wet
soil is somewhat insulated due to the ice and at about 20 degrees is a root
killing temp for most sensitive trees
I know this is to much information but it has worked for us even in the
polar vortex of 2014
Cliff
Thank you
Kum Hui and Clifford England
England's Orchard and Nursery
2338 HIGHWAY 2004
Mc Kee, KY. 40447-8342
Specializing in alternative crops.
www.nuttrees.net
Email: nuttrees@prtcnet.org
Ph. # 606 965 2228
See us On FACEBOOK @ https://www.facebook.com/Kynuttrees
https://www.facebook.com/KYorchard
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Wednesday, November 30, 2016
Re: [nafex] Care of D. kaki seedlings
On 11/30/2016 5:02 PM, Matt Demmon wrote:
> I'm not sure what your overwintering plan is, but in my experience
> wintering seedlings in pots, persimmons are some of the most difficult. I
> generally experience 100% death if they are kept outside above ground over
> winter, even in a sheltered location or with leaves or chips mounded around
> the pots. Same with paw paws, BTW.
Matt,
I will say (write) this with tongue-in-cheek. Chips and leaves don't
offer enough protection if there only packed around the pots to the
surface of the soil in the pots. I think if you had it 12 inches over
the top of the soil in the pots the root system would receive sufficient
insulation to survive. Some years back I had a number of kaki seedlings
in the soil and I packed wood chips around them to a depth of 12 inches
which completely covered the little seedlings. They survived and one day
when the temperature was 0°F I took a thermometer and inserted it down
into the wood chips to a depth of about 6 inches and the temperature at
that level was 20°. I'm curious, if you had mulched above the soil
levels in the pot how deep was it?
Jerry
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> I'm not sure what your overwintering plan is, but in my experience
> wintering seedlings in pots, persimmons are some of the most difficult. I
> generally experience 100% death if they are kept outside above ground over
> winter, even in a sheltered location or with leaves or chips mounded around
> the pots. Same with paw paws, BTW.
Matt,
I will say (write) this with tongue-in-cheek. Chips and leaves don't
offer enough protection if there only packed around the pots to the
surface of the soil in the pots. I think if you had it 12 inches over
the top of the soil in the pots the root system would receive sufficient
insulation to survive. Some years back I had a number of kaki seedlings
in the soil and I packed wood chips around them to a depth of 12 inches
which completely covered the little seedlings. They survived and one day
when the temperature was 0°F I took a thermometer and inserted it down
into the wood chips to a depth of about 6 inches and the temperature at
that level was 20°. I'm curious, if you had mulched above the soil
levels in the pot how deep was it?
Jerry
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Re: [nafex] Care of D. kaki seedlings
Cliff England has some Kaki's that survive securely in zone 6a.
On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
wrote:
> I have some seedlings started from seeds saved from D. kaki fruits. I have
> learned on this list that growing these trees up to maturity is sometimes
> problematic.
> Does anyone have suggestions or advice to improve my chances of success?
>
> I was planning to overwinter in pots this year and to set out in permanent
> sites next spring with the intention of providing vigilant care.
>
> Thanks,
> Betsy Hilborn
> Zone 7a, NC
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On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
wrote:
> I have some seedlings started from seeds saved from D. kaki fruits. I have
> learned on this list that growing these trees up to maturity is sometimes
> problematic.
> Does anyone have suggestions or advice to improve my chances of success?
>
> I was planning to overwinter in pots this year and to set out in permanent
> sites next spring with the intention of providing vigilant care.
>
> Thanks,
> Betsy Hilborn
> Zone 7a, NC
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Re: [nafex] Care of D. kaki seedlings
I'm not sure what your overwintering plan is, but in my experience
wintering seedlings in pots, persimmons are some of the most difficult. I
generally experience 100% death if they are kept outside above ground over
winter, even in a sheltered location or with leaves or chips mounded around
the pots. Same with paw paws, BTW.
I generally only had success overwintering them in pots by bringing them
into my ancient stone basement, where they probably averaged 45-50 degrees
all winter. I checked for moisture and watered them once or twice, and they
leafed out fine when brought up in May after most frosts. I tried the same
with my figs in pots, and the problem was they wanted to leaf out in Feb or
March, which is way too early in m location. The persimmons wouldn't leaf
out until it got warm, so they were fine.
I'm guessing Kaki are even more freezing sensitive. These were all straight
American.
Matt
zone 5, SE MI
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
wrote:
> Thank you. I am wondering if the seedlings are hybrids with D. virginiana
> as the leaves are not as thick and leathery as D. kaki, but wider than D.
> viginiana.
>
> I am hoping that if they are hybrids, it will confer additional winter
> hardiness.
>
> If they are hybrids, are there any special culture methods to follow?
>
> Betsy
>
>
> On 9/24/2016 10:40 PM, Jerry Lehman wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2016 3:54 PM, Elizabeth Hilborn wrote:
>>
>>> I have some seedlings started from seeds saved from D. kaki fruits. I
>>> have learned on this list that growing these trees up to maturity is
>>> sometimes problematic.
>>> Does anyone have suggestions or advice to improve my chances of success?
>>>
>>> I was planning to overwinter in pots this year and to set out in
>>> permanent sites next spring with the intention of providing vigilant care.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Betsy Hilborn
>>> Zone 7a, NC
>>>
>> Hello Betsy,
>>
>> You're in zone 7a which improves your chances but still not guaranteed.
>> My zone 7 chart says 0 Fahrenheit average minimum low temperature. That's
>> average which means occasionally it can get lower than that and based on my
>> experience kaki winter damage begins at 0 and -10 normally spells death.
>> Can you put it on the south side of your home, like only a few feet from
>> your home. I have kept kaki several years 2 feet from the south side of my
>> house and they fruited but when it got the -15 there wasn't enough
>> protection.
>>
>> Jerry
>> __________________
>>
>>
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wintering seedlings in pots, persimmons are some of the most difficult. I
generally experience 100% death if they are kept outside above ground over
winter, even in a sheltered location or with leaves or chips mounded around
the pots. Same with paw paws, BTW.
I generally only had success overwintering them in pots by bringing them
into my ancient stone basement, where they probably averaged 45-50 degrees
all winter. I checked for moisture and watered them once or twice, and they
leafed out fine when brought up in May after most frosts. I tried the same
with my figs in pots, and the problem was they wanted to leaf out in Feb or
March, which is way too early in m location. The persimmons wouldn't leaf
out until it got warm, so they were fine.
I'm guessing Kaki are even more freezing sensitive. These were all straight
American.
Matt
zone 5, SE MI
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Elizabeth Hilborn <ehilborn@mebtel.net>
wrote:
> Thank you. I am wondering if the seedlings are hybrids with D. virginiana
> as the leaves are not as thick and leathery as D. kaki, but wider than D.
> viginiana.
>
> I am hoping that if they are hybrids, it will confer additional winter
> hardiness.
>
> If they are hybrids, are there any special culture methods to follow?
>
> Betsy
>
>
> On 9/24/2016 10:40 PM, Jerry Lehman wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2016 3:54 PM, Elizabeth Hilborn wrote:
>>
>>> I have some seedlings started from seeds saved from D. kaki fruits. I
>>> have learned on this list that growing these trees up to maturity is
>>> sometimes problematic.
>>> Does anyone have suggestions or advice to improve my chances of success?
>>>
>>> I was planning to overwinter in pots this year and to set out in
>>> permanent sites next spring with the intention of providing vigilant care.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Betsy Hilborn
>>> Zone 7a, NC
>>>
>> Hello Betsy,
>>
>> You're in zone 7a which improves your chances but still not guaranteed.
>> My zone 7 chart says 0 Fahrenheit average minimum low temperature. That's
>> average which means occasionally it can get lower than that and based on my
>> experience kaki winter damage begins at 0 and -10 normally spells death.
>> Can you put it on the south side of your home, like only a few feet from
>> your home. I have kept kaki several years 2 feet from the south side of my
>> house and they fruited but when it got the -15 there wasn't enough
>> protection.
>>
>> Jerry
>> __________________
>>
>>
> __________________
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> Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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Sunday, November 13, 2016
Re: [nafex] Fwd: [midfex] bush apricot
Hi Larry,
Not sure why you forwarded this message to me. I see it automatically
as part of the Midfex Forum.
Sherwin
On 11/13/2016 10:35 AM, Lawrence London wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Alvin Warren <alvinwarren1@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 8:22 AM
> Subject: [midfex] bush apricot
> To: "Midwest Fruit Explorers (members only)" <midfex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> I'm looking for a "bush" apricot plant that some of you talked about awhile
> back. As I recall, they are much more consistent and reliable than apricot
> trees in producing apricots. Can any of you tell me where I can find it or
> where I can get more info about it?
> Thank you!
> Alvin Warren
> _______________________________________________
> midfex mailing list
> midfex@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/midfex
>
>
>
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Not sure why you forwarded this message to me. I see it automatically
as part of the Midfex Forum.
Sherwin
On 11/13/2016 10:35 AM, Lawrence London wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Alvin Warren <alvinwarren1@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 8:22 AM
> Subject: [midfex] bush apricot
> To: "Midwest Fruit Explorers (members only)" <midfex@lists.ibiblio.org>
>
>
> I'm looking for a "bush" apricot plant that some of you talked about awhile
> back. As I recall, they are much more consistent and reliable than apricot
> trees in producing apricots. Can any of you tell me where I can find it or
> where I can get more info about it?
> Thank you!
> Alvin Warren
> _______________________________________________
> midfex mailing list
> midfex@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/midfex
>
>
>
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[nafex] Fwd: [midfex] bush apricot
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Alvin Warren <alvinwarren1@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 8:22 AM
Subject: [midfex] bush apricot
To: "Midwest Fruit Explorers (members only)" <midfex@lists.ibiblio.org>
I'm looking for a "bush" apricot plant that some of you talked about awhile
back. As I recall, they are much more consistent and reliable than apricot
trees in producing apricots. Can any of you tell me where I can find it or
where I can get more info about it?
Thank you!
Alvin Warren
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--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
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From: Alvin Warren <alvinwarren1@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 8:22 AM
Subject: [midfex] bush apricot
To: "Midwest Fruit Explorers (members only)" <midfex@lists.ibiblio.org>
I'm looking for a "bush" apricot plant that some of you talked about awhile
back. As I recall, they are much more consistent and reliable than apricot
trees in producing apricots. Can any of you tell me where I can find it or
where I can get more info about it?
Thank you!
Alvin Warren
_______________________________________________
midfex mailing list
midfex@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/midfex
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared
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Tuesday, November 8, 2016
Re: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
Pat, did you check this out?
https://www.google.com/search?q=carob+cultivars&rlz=1C1LENN_enUS499US499&oq=carob+cultivars&aqs=chrome..69i57.17902j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Lehman
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 5:13 PM
To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
Subject: Re: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
On 11/8/2016 10:28 AM, Patrick O'Connor wrote:
> I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only
> been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named
> cultivar.
>
> Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
>
> Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
Sorry Pat, I can't help you on this one.
Jerry
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https://www.google.com/search?q=carob+cultivars&rlz=1C1LENN_enUS499US499&oq=carob+cultivars&aqs=chrome..69i57.17902j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Lehman
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 5:13 PM
To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
Subject: Re: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
On 11/8/2016 10:28 AM, Patrick O'Connor wrote:
> I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only
> been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named
> cultivar.
>
> Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
>
> Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
Sorry Pat, I can't help you on this one.
Jerry
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Re: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
On 11/8/2016 10:28 AM, Patrick O'Connor wrote:
> I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named cultivar.
>
> Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
>
> Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
Sorry Pat, I can't help you on this one.
Jerry
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> I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named cultivar.
>
> Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
>
> Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
Sorry Pat, I can't help you on this one.
Jerry
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Re: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
Might I recommend a visit to Los Banos, CA, at Carob ripening time? Their
streets are lined with Carob and you could make selections from those.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 9:28 AM
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
Hi All,
I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only been
able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named cultivar.
Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
best,
Patrick O'Connor
Hollister, CA zone 9b
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streets are lined with Carob and you could make selections from those.
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 9:28 AM
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
Hi All,
I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only been
able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named cultivar.
Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
best,
Patrick O'Connor
Hollister, CA zone 9b
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Re: [nafex] Carob trees in commerce
You don't know how happy I am to see someone ask this! I've been studying
carob as an independent project for 3 years now! Unfortunately, no one
cared about carob much in this country and the many named varieties that
were imported into Southern California weren't cared for properly. I know
of two nurseries that claim to have cultivars and neither of them do mail
order, to my knowledge.
If you ever go on a trip to SoCal, Papaya Tree Nursery in Granada Hills
says they've had 'Santa Fe'. In Vista, CA near San Diego, Exotica Nursery
claims to have 'Santa Fe', 'Tillyria' and 'Sfax' last I heard. I say
"claims" in both cases because carob cultivars have been so thoroughly lost
in botanical gardens and in USDA holdings that unless someone provides good
provenance, I can't be 100% sure that what they're carrying is what they
say it is. That said, Vista, CA was a hotbed of carob research so there's
a good chance that they have superior eating varieties surviving there.
'Santa Fe' is self-fertile. 'Tillyria' and 'Sfax' are female and would need
a male or 'Santa Fe' nearby.
The USDA only has seeds in its holdings and it's not even really holding
those (they're at the Desert Legume Project). Carob is pretty hard to
graft. People who grow carob commercially do it, but it's not something
easy like grafting apples. The slow growth rate that makes carob so
drought-resistant also makes it slow to heal grafting wounds. I know of no
scion wood sources in the US other than going to a carob street tree with
good fruit and cutting wood yourself.
Since few have carob cultivars in the US and import laws make it extremely
difficult to reimport the material we lost, there's a lot to be said for
asking people who live near carob street trees to see if they know of one
with particularly good fruit. Self-fertile ones are rare (plus or minus 1%
of all) but I have run across a couple self-fertile street trees in my
time. None with amazing fruit, but I've only looked at about 200 specimens
so far...
Megan Lynch
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Patrick O'Connor <refugia@zoho.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only
> been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named
> cultivar.
>
> Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
>
> Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
>
> best,
> Patrick O'Connor
> Hollister, CA zone 9b
>
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carob as an independent project for 3 years now! Unfortunately, no one
cared about carob much in this country and the many named varieties that
were imported into Southern California weren't cared for properly. I know
of two nurseries that claim to have cultivars and neither of them do mail
order, to my knowledge.
If you ever go on a trip to SoCal, Papaya Tree Nursery in Granada Hills
says they've had 'Santa Fe'. In Vista, CA near San Diego, Exotica Nursery
claims to have 'Santa Fe', 'Tillyria' and 'Sfax' last I heard. I say
"claims" in both cases because carob cultivars have been so thoroughly lost
in botanical gardens and in USDA holdings that unless someone provides good
provenance, I can't be 100% sure that what they're carrying is what they
say it is. That said, Vista, CA was a hotbed of carob research so there's
a good chance that they have superior eating varieties surviving there.
'Santa Fe' is self-fertile. 'Tillyria' and 'Sfax' are female and would need
a male or 'Santa Fe' nearby.
The USDA only has seeds in its holdings and it's not even really holding
those (they're at the Desert Legume Project). Carob is pretty hard to
graft. People who grow carob commercially do it, but it's not something
easy like grafting apples. The slow growth rate that makes carob so
drought-resistant also makes it slow to heal grafting wounds. I know of no
scion wood sources in the US other than going to a carob street tree with
good fruit and cutting wood yourself.
Since few have carob cultivars in the US and import laws make it extremely
difficult to reimport the material we lost, there's a lot to be said for
asking people who live near carob street trees to see if they know of one
with particularly good fruit. Self-fertile ones are rare (plus or minus 1%
of all) but I have run across a couple self-fertile street trees in my
time. None with amazing fruit, but I've only looked at about 200 specimens
so far...
Megan Lynch
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Patrick O'Connor <refugia@zoho.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only
> been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named
> cultivar.
>
> Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
>
> Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
>
> best,
> Patrick O'Connor
> Hollister, CA zone 9b
>
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[nafex] Carob trees in commerce
Hi All,
I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named cultivar.
Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
best,
Patrick O'Connor
Hollister, CA zone 9b
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I'm looking to order good fruiting varieties of carob. So far I've only been able to find carob for landscaping, nothing sexed or with a named cultivar.
Can anyone recommend a mail order nursery that sells carob for production?
Are there any sources of scionwood for carob out there?
best,
Patrick O'Connor
Hollister, CA zone 9b
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nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters
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